Alternative motor windings and drive schemes

[Clugh]

The speed limit on 14 poles with any YGE is approximately 35,285 rpm it cannot approach the same points of operation with inverters made for higher pole count outrunners .

[Clugh]

BTW Borat

Yge's basic features

Active-free wheeling
8-16Khz PWM
Controller: Atmel mega168 16KB @ 20Mhz
Drivers: National LM5101 http://www.digikey.com/product-detai...101M-ND/634651
FETs: Fairchild 045AN08 http://www.digikey.com/product-detai...A0TR-ND/965271

The YGE 120HV is a dedicated heli ESC designed for up to 14S operation @ 120Amps. This ESC has the highest On-Resistance 3 milliOhms compared to any other 120Amp controller I've seen. Even the Turnigy 120Amp unit has lower IR. It is 114grams without connectors

The
YGE 200 HV FAI is 200 amperes max for a 10 second it weighs 77 grams

YGE 205HVT 205 continuous its weighs 219 grams....🙈🙉🙊

For empirical hobbyist 🙄

Gerben The multiple world champion flies the APD because you see it has synchronous rectification can burst over 350 amperes on YouTube and weighs 36 grams!

He will also tell you that he still loves castle and also still flies it as it is a little stronger in his opinion has an extremely low on resistance and as you can see in test bench review is a top performer over Kosmic and YGE at a high percentage to full throttle where full power occurs. Even you should know the throttle demands of a speed plane and helicopter are totally different.

18kW @ 36 grams!

[Clugh]

Here is an example of a linear load bank using FETS In the miller plateau region which is a state where the FET is neither fully on or off it is used as a variable resistor. Tonys prototype uses a power fet thats 100 amps at 500 Volts. Fully submerged in water maintaining a case temp of 100C One can dissipate around 1kw. His board is allotted for 8 in parallel it can do 8kW submerged. The configuration is simple. The gate is fed in a hysteresis configuration with an op amp. The inverted input if fed by the voltage seen across the current shunt resistor and the non inverted input is fed by a reference voltage for the desired state of the FET(Load resistance) . Do you want to build one for an HK dyno...

[Clugh]

Here's what Tony used to build his.

[Clugh]

Boho1
Today, 07:55 AM

Hi Borat
I know you are here so let me show you more about DC and the internal resistance with your YGE's The YGE used 4 layers of copper in its traces the APD uses 8 layers Borat....👀

The APD HV Pro 16s internal resistance is .00018 ohms have you ever compared that to the YGE 320? By ohms law post on rcgroups how does the YGE really deliver more power from the battery to the motor then?

See how crazy your post must be.....🙈🙉🙊

The resistances are easily viewable in eCalc

heres another example that cannot be denied by hobbyist on German social media.

A yge sapphire 125 has an iR of .0020 the APD F3 120 iR is literally half of that at .0011 the YGE is 124 grams the APD is 20 grams!

so clearly it can sink double the current and weighs 6 times less.......💩

[Clugh]

A castle pheonix ice hv 120 iR is .0008 ohms! and weighs 108 grams. What does YGE really have optimized for speed flight? Its heavier and less powerful. Than just about everything but it does have a made in Germany sticker on it. 🤕

For someone stuck on resistance and the DC you mean to tell me you are there talking on RC groups and never looked at the resistance? LOL! I'll purchase the full calculator so I can show the boys the truth about the inverters. Who's ready to argue that an inverter with a higher iR is going to deliver more power to a battery? You and DZHAMEL's Unilog is very smart. Do you and modelers on RC Groups that believe you think unilog can even rewrite the physical laws that govern power electronics?


Thats a question for all reading to consider. Open up your power calculators and milliohm meters on German social and tell me a YGE 320 can deliver more power from the battery. Its absolutely ludicrous!!!. One look at the power specifications offered by the manufactures spells it out quite simply the APD is a 30 kW drive the YGE320 is not.

YGE was always there in your planes but The fact is Ralph that DZHAMEL with stronger pockets buys the APD in several models ....🙈🙉🙊

[Clugh]

A true delivery of information would tell people the YGE320 is no longer available and the 255 opto is its predecessor. It has revised hardware . Its now 32bit with better fets than a 320. Its has the RCT cooling concept which does the same thing as wrongly charged to the APD . Its automatically current limited to 400 amps peak and is going to cut back based on voltage sag and temperature so if the supply is not there the inverter is going to protect itself and back off. Thats exactly what they are supposed to do so if you want more power u have to deliver more cooling or a better power supply (battery) . The batteries your friend uses are certainly not the best . If stronger (with higher resistance) and dumber ( with slower processing and obsolete hardware) is better YGE discontinued it for what they feel is better. They also can do more than 16khz PWM now and that's direct from them to me in a direct email. This is proof perfect that even they YGE knows a 320 is antiquated. The 400 ampere peak 255 opto still weighs 140 or so grams more than the 400 continuous 600 burst current 16s APD!

[Clugh]

Its always good to have a brain to think through these basic electronic principles and misinformation on the German social media site..RALPH! I would have loved to send you this information privately to share with your friends but you don't want to talk to me DIRECTLY anymore after that shady post #6. Dont be embarrassed.... I still encourage open discussion... My fallacy dome of defense is deployed... 🙈🙉🙊

[Clugh]

BTW
A 50 series with 1.828 mm 13 AWG would be Childs play for the real 1 boho at 52 years of age. Is a 12T on a 50 series all u can do? Or do u need a handicap winders' parking permit? 😃 The YGE 320 cannot deliver in dual 3 phase (DTP) 700 amperes to the high idle knocker @ 72 grams or turn it to 200,000 rpm for $420.00 usd can it? There is no PID tuning with one either. No low pass filter capability or digital communication protocols like proshot or dshot with the yge. Slower telemetry and very limited in all but the most basic options. It has no beta flight FC or blheli32 capabilities at all. Its funny scorpion doesnt endorse someone that actually uses their products which I see as better than the YGE for the application of speed flight. Its a six step drive.. It has alot more features in its configuration software and can drive a 32khz pwm. It can sink what the 255 opto can and its 100 grams less in weight.

[Clugh]

I think scorpion says it best for ALL the higher end inverter companies that now use current protection algorithms for people that exceed there specified current limits...

"11.1 Maximum Current Protection Algorithm Starting from FW > V70, we have implemented a new protection algorithm for Maximum Current. To understand the purpose of this you must first understand the important difference between Battery Current (A), and Phase Current (A). When an ESC drives a motor, the MOSFETS turn ON and OFF power to the different phases of the motor in a specific sequence to rotate the motor. At 100% power, this means that the MOSFET is passing 100% of the battery voltage is to the phases of the motor. For the sake of this example we can say, if you are running 50% power, then this means that the MOSFET is only passing 50% of battery voltage to the phases of the motor. Since we know Wattage = Voltage X Amps, or in other words Amps = Wattage / Voltage then we can calculate the following examples. Ex. 1 – If your airplane / helicopter is properly set up, with a correct sized propeller / gear ratio. With a 6s Battery (22.2V), you run 100% throttle, and you motor is pulling 100A under load, then we can calculate the following Battery Current - 100A X 22.2V (battery voltage) = 2,220 Watts Phase Current - 100A x 22.2V (MOSFET voltage) = 2,220 Watts Ex 2 – If your airplane / helicopter is improperly setup, with too large of propeller / wrong gear ratio. With 6s Battery (22.2V), you run only 50% throttle, and you’re still pulling 100A under load. Keep in mind, since we are at 50% throttle, this means the MOSFETS are only sending 50% of the voltage to the motor phases. Then we can calculate the following. Battery Current - 100A X 22.2V (battery voltage) = 2,220 Watts Phase Current - 200A x 11.1V (MOSFET voltage at 50%) = 2,220 Watts As you can see, even though the battery current is the same, the phase current is much higher. When running partial throttle percentages, the phase currents can rise exponentially. Higher phase currents cause more efficiency losses, and higher temperatures not to mention can quickly and easily fail due to excessive load. This is why there is such importance on proper gear ratio / propeller setup. To combat users who run our ESC product with improper propeller selection / gear ratios we have implemented the following Maximum Current Protections. - Maximum Current Protection now regulates calculated PHASE CURRENT, and not BATTERY CURRENT"

As far as the manufactures are concerned there are two ways to look at this. You motor is over propped for the specified ratings or the prop is under- motored and requires too many amps to do the job.

This means if you purchase the 20s or 24s version of and inverter and its specified continuous ratings are 300 and 200 and not 400 continuous you can expect it to regulate itself with repeated trips to .> 400 amperes because that's what its supposed to do especially as the temperature rises and the voltage sags. If you don't have a soft fuse nothings left to happen but the smoke otherwise.....

To push a desired prop within the specified current limits in this case would require a different wind or a larger or more powerful motor. The name of the game is simple. A modeler cant copy someone else's setup and expect the same results. He has to optimize his setup esp. if his equipment is different. If he has a 20s or 24s inverter and he wants full power he winds the motor Kv to deliver the desired prop rpm at those voltages. If he runs a motor wound to deliver the desired prop rpm for 16s and it needs >400 amperes to do so he has the wrong inverter if he buys one specified for less than 400 continuous which the 20S and 24S version both are indeed specified for less. The companies can pull the soft fuses off and then they will void the warranties and deny the claims based on the fact they all require you to run the latest FW patches.... I know for a fact that if MGM comp pro deems it user error or abuse they will leave you flat on your face and you will pay for every single repair....😉

With all the things and advanced modeler and motor/builder winder has at his hands none of this would hardly be an obstacle to electrical aviation power systems that can deliver > 605km/h

If he runs the 20S (85 volt) version topped out and bounces around 402amperes with current limiting he'd be delivering 34kW to the motor so how much does the scorpion thumper need to turn the prop? He needs a different motor and or winder that sets his electrical torque constant (1/Kv) correctly, so the amperage is not too high to turn the prop to the desired pitch speed at 85 volts. Unless his powercroco motor is all reactive or under powered. Geared correctly It should be there at 34kW right Ralph?

With YGE320 desynchronization the issue isnt much different.... the hardware motor/drive combination cant manage the required pull out torque when you try to accelerate the prop and it slips...🙈🙉🙊

[Clugh]

Hi Borat,
Here's your YGE 400 so here it has no APD limiter so where's the logs of the 500 amperes with the prop?
U see it still uses d2PAK 3 pin fets it cant run many with its driver so measure the iR and know what you truly have a heavier good part load inverter with heli lineage and the highest resistance when you run mostly high throttle percentages and WOT in a speed trap. It runs hotter than everybody there... Kosmic, Castle, APD....🙈🙉🙊. If 605 is there this should extract it right? U see to fortify the traces of a 4 layer PCB they added bus bars!!

Hand DZHAMEL one.

But when you say dumber and stronger than APD I want everyone to see you only got the first part right.

[Clugh]

This is just the A phase power stage. They utilize almost all the board copper into the bridge. Its one for each phase and another pcb that carries nothing but a large array of MLCC's which are much faster and a great compliment to the bulk balanced electrolytics they provide. Then finally the last PCB carries all the logic MCU on board ps etc. DZHAMEL is a consumer with obviously no measure of the inverters iR or manufactures specifications so you go ahead and listen to him. You be the disadvantaged and misinformed. I beta tested the PROTOTYPE @ Daimler . If you knew FET technology then you'd know why a faster gate charge is advantageous to paralleling fets and being able to switch them fast enough. This is why the YGE PWM is limited. With just a change in the FETS of a 255 OPTO with the same number of fets they could run a higher pwm. .Since they increased the PWM capability I assume that's what they did. They could have easily just stayed at 16 khz and added more fets in parallel for a lower iR. They have a good synchronous rectification AFW so they still manage cool running at partial load and did not find the higher iR a concern untill they added buss bars to carry more amperage 🙈🙉🙊. Just based on the slow commutation algorithm and processing clock it will never be the ideal highspeed inverter. The capabilities of the plainly listed hardware onboard doesn't care about a hobby pilots opinion. None of the inverters are the problem. Its always the hobbyist that makes all his own purchasing decisions about the equipment he uses and their applicative setups to reach their goal. They choose the motor, inverter, plane, props, and the batteries they use. Its always on them if they don't reach their goal . DZHAMEL subscribes to you and your F3S friends for advice. So who's fault is it what he flies, what's in it, and how he uses it? I want you to know my opinion on this....The subsequent editorial on the inverter from you and him on RC groups and German social media is real trash... Im sure your post will help him establish a productive and cooperative relationship of support with the boys down under.

[Clugh]

Good job! Social media sank another "turbine"...😎



Customer update
Oct 24
As you all know, Advanced Power Drives (APD) has been a mainstay in the UAS space since 2015 with commercial and recreational customers. As our capabilities have grown over the years, so has our customer base. We are proud to say that our components have played a critical role in the UAS market globally, from emergency rescues, to the delivery of vital health supplies in remote areas, cinema UAVs, aerial surveillance and more.

We have always strived to provide the best possible products and service to all our customers, at the best possible prices. As a small team, we have done our best to navigate through chip shortages, support, feature / firmware updates and product development. However, the best experience for a commercial customer is vastly different to that of a recreational user.

We have also acknowledged that the other options available to recreational drone users within our space offer more cost-effective solutions. With that in mind, and to ensure the sustainability of our company, we have made the considered decision to focus our efforts with new and existing commercial UAS customers only, and will no longer be designing and manufacturing ESCs for the recreational drone racing markets.

It goes without saying that all of our customers have played a huge part in helping us get off the ground and your consistent feedback has been very welcome.

Our online shop will remain open for orders until 8 January 2024, and warranties, replacement parts and technical support will continue to be available for the foreseeable future. After this date, our online shop will be removed, and our APD product range will only be made available for commercial customers via contact@powerdrives.net and to our preferred distributors only.

We appreciate your support and understanding as we look to new horizons.

The Team from Advanced Power Drives

APD BRUSHLESS MOTOR SPEED CONTROLS US STOCK (neumotors.com)

So I guess at least we are good here....

[Clugh]

BTW Ralph.
You can be sure I'm the one that had Steve contact you on RC Groups. I wrote him Thu, Nov 9 at 12:47 PM id send you a copy of the email to he and Jeff in its entirety privately if you open it back up. I also contacted AJ and Tony. These professional connections are critical to hobby and I do not like what you are doing! I want you to see how long that response took. I don't need to be on rc groups!

Danke,
Hubert

Nov 09, 2023, 01:13 PM #285

sneu Registered User

Quote: Originally Posted by powercroco My opinion about this: The main problem with this ESC software seems to be, that is not able to deliver 400A continous but only 400A peak. At 400A peak the real Amps seem to be only about 350Amps. This causes, that the ESC work in high power partload, and this causes this very high temperature by switching losses. And it also causes the loss of about 850rpm compared with ESC without this "regulation". These aubout 5% will give you almost 5% less speed, means, with a full open ESC. This means, you will get only 577km/h instead of the possible 605km/h with the setup. of course also the weather conditions have to fit. The seen 74% relative humidity at 23°C mean 9g/m² water in air. For really fast speeds we found, that someone needs condition with les than 6g/m³ air! When the conditions are really optimal, someone can see results just like the 640km/h by Stan and the 623km/h by Tim and also the 353 km/h by a helicopter for the 200m measuring distance. We had these conditions only once in time in our competitions and only for les than 30min. So actually Kai's both sides 587km/h in the 300m long WR -measuring distance with jugdes and profen by the high speed camera systems is still the fastest flight ever! anyway, the main problem is the ESC with it's high sofisticated software. This is not needed for speed use. Optimal ESC for speeding must be better stupid and strong. And the main factor for highest speeds is still the well trained and super talented pilot! APD controllers will protect themselves from effects of saturating the stator motor iron by throttling back as well as limiting on BOTH the bus and phase current---check the controller log files and I bet you will see a mismatch between the bus current and phase current. Depending on the firmware version you have in the controller it should flag the events in the graphs. If you are seeing "desaturation" flags the options are to reduce the load or increase the mass of steel in the motor ---a "stronger and stupid" controller will burn rather than protect its self---and your wallet APD will be updating their controllers in the coming year with additional protections ---as they target their controllers at higher value markets.

[Clugh]

Its the same old theme as post # 130 Ralph. A saturated knocker ....So you can go ahead and wind a longer heavier stack since a conventional wye wind wont utilize more iron esp. as the parallel stranding and elevated idle currents burn what is there. 🙈🙉🙊

You could always print carbonyl composite slot wedges to improve the cos phi relationship and lower load amperages.
A novel gimmick.

[Clugh]

And so then here is a truthful log of your 5040 he purchased with DZHAMEL's APD with OLD FW free of protections and >410 amperes. They are "cheating" you say. See you special fo sho Powercroco! Will you tell your friends on German social media the motor is spent around 400 amperes that's why baby girl is throttling back the phase current with the latest FW?

[Clugh]

Hmm a 5020 series scorpion 12 turns or more in 13AWG (1.828mm) for a large hotliner. Thats a target. I want to try some wacky winds and inverter configurations for 2024.

[Clugh]

Yes Ralph the congratulations is in order. for APD not YGE and so far hes done 603 km/h with it....🙈🙉🙊 You all are. hilarious The video is setup so ONLY your friends on Truth Social Germanycan view it .

Ralph, I have to ask, does your animated puppet still provide data logs ...?

All about the inverters and the "amateur winder" on RCN might want to see that.


👁👁


.

[Clugh]

RC Groups - View Single Post - BIG TYPHOON + PowerCroco 5050 + APD HV Pro 400A

Be sure u all know that Powercroco is the one driving this privacy......it doesn't take that long to spoof APDs or any other inverters .csv format log into YGE's😁


🐊

[Clugh]

This is why the readers should care less about him or putins puppet. They knock every product but their own then when they are wrong the post become "..." edits or it falls to the bottom These charlatans don't want you to see the APD likely did it utilizing less current than a YGE . Do you see how the latest logs of 603 with APD wont come out now 👀

Its amazing BORAT how people on forums support a false information amateur that lies straight to their face with full contempt to sell his low Eta scorpion rewinds and the highest resistance inverter in class. They buy into it but all the proof that clearly show other wise they ignore like this performance plot or faster pilots with different equipment mainly motor.... its a cultish following on weak minded forums and germen social media.

This plot is not "damn hard to understand" and Its tragic someone thinks they are special enough from such a plot and because they learned how to wrap copper around iron to open their mouth to critique something they cannot build and have zero know how on the subject matter. You should learn to be quiet and learn more about hardware functionality and CONTEPORARY motor winds b4 u slam a great product you know zero about..... 🙈🙉🙊 I know you see here that your rewind makes less TORQUE and ETA ? Where is the improvement of lower DC resistance in this picture over the Plattenburg? The powercroco scorpion took its rightful seat on the podium here. Can you see that or do you ignore it Borat?

I guess a guru cant wind it so they tell the forums mis information instead.

It will eliminate the fundamental which is where the majority of rotor losses occur but you are still playing around with the conventional noisy winds on 10 poles when the difference has been presented for over 6 years now. German social media hasnt produced even 1.




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