Alternative motor windings and drive schemes

[Clugh]

Ralph Okon!

I bet you wont ask or tell Christian Lucas directly in that German thread exactly why a hybrid wind work for your application and any other e traction application in hobby or recreational that use a 12 slot 10 pole machine.. And he wont ask or tell you a good reason either!

Or you both could come out the closet and answer me here directly since you are both here. You know you both are posting a bunch of nonsense over there in Germany!

You laid up together now AFAIC which is incredibly funny but you see the data here on the subject matter....you two got some???



Danke,
Hubert

[Clugh]

Yeah that's wtf I thought! You still HAVE NOT left a single unit of data. o youre still a full joke to US but figure you better wind ya HK and test it before I leave them the real data. And what measuring equipment you use when you are not testing the right way nor are your reporting the idle currents. You still think your friends in Germany and American are stupid huh? Funny how my post drummed the bs back up again. Silly man hiding his comparative constants on a motor he says he has no use for but he is testing it again and still asking for data. You're so damn bright and weird you cant realize nobody in the world has any data to offer a clown but the English speaking Anglophiles. ..There's a million ways to test its effectiveness that doesn't require a 10,000 Yokogawa PA WHICH the IEEE top test equipment HAS ALREADY SHOWN THE IMPROVEMENTS BTW ! Despite that its very easy test.for a hobbyist it s obvious to everyone but a moron that loss translate theat. If the pm and bell have reduce loss even close to the projected numbers common sense would tell you you can look at the bell temps oif a motoro in operation and you can always turn a freaking prop and look at consumption. You know all that so please continue with the Minstrel show. You rather me expose you step for step. Ok cool go ahead with that. Let US and them understand .You're interested in anyone's data on a motor winding your application has no use for? We're glad you finished your unreported data yet still have interest. You really think the hobbyist are stupid....and cant see the dents in your reptilian armor No one In the world has any data on the external rotor hybrids but POCBOY....That's why you are here in class. Remember? Dr Okon You haven't posted a single thing of any scientific comparative relevance YET! I also see you aint ask ya buddy in Bayern or explain why it wouldn't be suitable for a hobby speed plane LOL!. See how you skew fact and I expose it easily? That always happen with fact versus fiction. Do you expect different results if you keep lying? It is mania, the sudden shift in opinion and emotions, u 2 go through daily. Its like menopause.

"If someone tests this as well and comes to different results, I would be a bit interested."
"As written:
if someone should find out otherwise, I would be interested."
~Dr Ralph Okon~

"The no-load currents show differences max. in the (unreliable) 3rd decimal place."

And I know that's a lie there's no way the idle current is the same... what would you need any more comparative data if the phase resistance was the same with no change in idle current between the two machine that run at the same Kv The hybrid is a slower machine for sure therefore it can also hold larger wire becuase it uses less turns. Thats clear in the P700 data from the "Anglophile" in Cambridge UK!

This is why real engineers leave data and not social media mania. Its even more simple why he wont leave any constants because that would mean someone could check his falsified recollection of data.

Where are the recorded comparative motor constants on these 10 and 14 pole motors you supposedly and fairly tested with the control wye wound machine dude? Comparing a 10 pole motor and a 14 pole motor on the hybrid winding isnt a comparative test . The effect will be exactly the same on both engines.

Where is the control wye wound motor and its constants Dr Okon??????? or you trying to confuse the forum again by comparing things not in question like two different pole rotors on the same wind .


Hubert

[Clugh]

The Hybrid P700 does a lower Kv with 4 less turns than a YY and it ran cooler despite less fill. and at a significantly lower idle current. Less turns in this case made it much lighter than all the other motors in the Cambridge test but with 4 less turns you can run alot larger wire with it. Larger wire with less turns drops the DCR. The mis already wound with a larger wire than the YY 1.15mm to 1.20mm

The YY's idle current is 2.1 amps at 18.9 volts the hybrid is 1.51 amps at 23.49 volts After 5 min The YY who's idle would be even larger at the same voltage ran at 33 degrees Celsius the hybrid 24 degrees Celsius

[Clugh]

#2 was a 12 turn YY wound with 1.25mm. So only 1 turn more than the hybrid and it had larger wire. Do you see what the idle current Kv and operational temperature rise from ambient was Dr Okon.

P700 YY
12 turns parallel wye in 1.25mm
Copper cross section 14mm^2
Kv 527
Io 2.7 amps @ 20 volts
ΔTemp @ 5min from ambient = +5 °C

P700 Hybrid
11 turns (4T)Y + (6T)Δ in 1.20 mm
Copper cross section 12.4mm^2
Kv 410
Io 1.51 amps @ 23 volts
ΔTemp @ 5min from ambient = +3°C

Only you cant see the writing on the wall. and yours never agrees with academics and is always a secret. BTW you notice Docta at WOT, which is six step for yge's, the larger wire dual layer YY with more fill ran hottest of all the motors on the YGE at 8khz pwm and zero degrees timing???? In a dual layer It will have the most sinus like waveform away from BLDC drive mode of the inverter so torque ripple is maximum with it at full throttle with the YGE.

No one even records idle current amperage to the 3rd decimal. Tell another story or show them the incorrect routing and motor constants that came with it. You never showed the backside termination of your hybrid wound motor for the forums.



TTYL
Hubert

[Clugh]

And why are you not testing "syncloss" now for Audisosmith? I bet you dont even have a AC amp clamp or DC wattmeter on the bench. feeding the inverter. You have a scope dont you? Why haven't you captured the BEMF waveforms the comparative motors make using the scope in FFT mode and calculated the Thd using a prime mover to drive the motors as generators ?

The Comtrol YY motor works perfect as a prime mover the new motor is the perfect brake

Drive three halogen candles with the motor terminals and the load is on when all three open end are shorted to one another. You can do that with 3 transistors and vary the load with duty cycle at the on gates. You can even use another inverter connected to the braking motor in active freewheel on the battery end you can drive a dc load, recharge a battery, or strap some type of braking resistor across it. Heater elements will work.

What data and capture equipment do you have Dr Okon besides unilog.?

Where is the control Y or YY motor at the same or similar Kv and its constants Dr Okon? You forget scientific method when you test things?

[Clugh]

Muncie.is right around the corner....

[Clugh]

Hi,
You have to be a member and signed in to see the photos from here on out.

I'll leave data when its complete with a new winding.

But check out the 3DP semi magnetic slot wedges I made for a higher efficiency Scorpion HK5020

Thanks
Hubert

[Clugh]

The theory.

4 Semi-magnetic slot wedges

The use of fractional conductor windings can modify (fine tune) the winding factors of the synchronous machine. These winding factors feed-forward to the air-gap flux density wave via the armature reaction MMF wave. Altering the winding factors has no effect on the stator slot permeances that have a large influence on the resulting air-gap flux density wave. The stators of large generators are usually designed with open slots and closed with a high temperature plastic or glass-fibre slot wedge to assist with keeping the coils in place. Open slots reduce the output voltage quality of generators and also degree the performance of motors – pole face losses increase significantly due to the increased air-gap harmonic content [6]. Fig. 5 shows the wedge placement in a parallel tooth synchronous machine.

There are commercially available semi-magnetic slot wedges [5]. These wedges have >1 relative permeability in the range 2 ≤ μ_r ≤ 10 and have been shown in single-tooth wound synchronous reluctance motors to reduce the harmonic content in the air gap by modulating the flux density wave via the permeances. It is possible that combination of reduction in pole shoe surface iron losses, reduced voltage THD, reduced field current, and improved efficiency energy conversion efficiency can be achieved by adopting correctly designed semi-magnetic slot wedges





Finite element studies can be used to determine the radial component of the air-gap flux density. The slot wedges shown in Fig. 5 have their relative permeability modified accordingly; 1 (normal wedge) ≤ μ_r  ≤ 100 (high permeability wedge). Transient motion analysis is also performed to determine the eddy-current losses in the pole face of the salient rotor poles. Fig. 6 shows the resultant radial air-gap magnetic flux density plots across a single rotor pole pitch in machine with different wedges, Fig. 7 shows the radial flux density harmonic decomposition, Fig. 8 the residual magnetic flux density over a rotor pole pitch and Fig. 9 the eddy-current distribution over half a rotor pole pitch.

Finite element studies can be used to determine the radial component of the air-gap flux density. The slot wedges shown in Fig. 5 have their relative permeability modified accordingly; 1 (normal wedge) ≤ μ_r  ≤ 100 (high permeability wedge). Transient motion analysis is also performed to determine the eddy-current losses in the pole face of the salient rotor poles. Fig. 6 shows the resultant radial air-gap magnetic flux density plots across a single rotor pole pitch in machine with different wedges, Fig. 7 shows the radial flux density harmonic decomposition, Fig. 8 the residual magnetic flux density over a rotor pole pitch and Fig. 9 the eddy-current distribution over half a rotor pole pitch.

As is clearly evident from Fig. 6, the stator slotting permeance causes significant variation of the air-gap flux density over the rotor pole face.

This leads to harmonic losses in the rotor pole surface and increased armature voltage harmonics, both of which are undesirable. By introducing the semi-magnetic wedges (here we must note that the wedge permeability is much less than the stator lamination steel), there are two observations;

• (i) Increased fundamental flux
• (ii) Reduction in the high frequency slotting harmonics

The increase in the fundamental flux is attributed to the shortening of the effective air gap, the Carter factor for the stator is reduced, and hence the effective air gap is smaller. The Carter factor is usually computed via conformal mapping assuming that the steel has infinite permeability and the stator slot opening has a relative permeability of one, this effectively enlarges the air gap – this effect is reduced with semi-magnetic slot wedges.

As a consequence, the fundamental voltage capability for the machine will increase slightly, or the required field current for rated air-gap flux will reduce along with the associated loss and temperature rise. Second, due to the reduction of the discontinuity of permeability in the slot opening, the stator slotting permeance function becomes less pronounced, reducing the high-frequency slotting visible in the air-gap flux density waveform for a machine with conventional wedges

Use of fractional-conductor windings and semi-magnetic slot wedges in synchronous machines

Christopher Donaghy-Spargo, Anthony Spargo
First published: 14 May 2019

https://doi.org/10.1049/joe.2018.8205

Citations: 3

You can always cut the overbearing CL off Docta...and try to make new friends that will not constantly try to force you to build a 41** LMT



YT,
Hubert

[Clugh]

From left to right if you look at the 2nd and 4th attachments in the previous post you can see all the slot noise that unwantedly effects flux density. The slot wedges reduce the noise as the permeability of the wedges increase.. They also increase the peak flux density when selected correctly. You can observe that data in the 3rd attachment above..

[Clugh]

Since the HK 5020 is already laced with 9 turns of 13 AWG 1.828mm. I'll wind a 5TY+ 9TΔ. I'm pretty sure I can fit it or get close. A parallel version can get good fill because it is a single coil winding on all 12 teeth before you terminate it. See all 12 slot wedges sticking to the pm. I wont install them at first so I can look at just the hybrid winding effects.


Thank you for your time and patience.
Huber

[Clugh]

The pyro 800 hybrid already had the delta coils secured with the boron nitride infused since I have the room with the securely out the way I'm going to mixed gauges. For the wye coils I plan to use 15 AWG. Both machines are ready for the open wye coils to be wrapped.
My rotor bell is super clean and the PM is nice with uniform spacing around the can..

Thanks for you time and patience.

TTYL
Hubert

[Clugh]

Hallo, ich hoffe, du bringst heute ein paar Daten mit in den Unterricht, Ralph. Du musst welche liefern, um in Amerika oder zu Hause ernst genommen zu werden.

Wir werden täglich mit Dutzenden von Argumenten konfrontiert, die angeblich faktisch sind. Jeden Tag müssen wir diese Aussagen bewerten und entscheiden, was wir davon halten – nicht nur, ob wir ihnen zustimmen oder nicht, sondern auch, ob wir sie für wahr halten. Halte beim Lesen einen Moment inne und überlege, wie viele solcher Botschaften und Aussagen du heute gehört hast und wie du sie empfunden hast.

Um ein überzeugendes Argument zu formulieren, muss der Autor nicht nur von einer fundierten Annahme ausgehen, sondern auch Beweise und Analysen liefern, die seine Schlussfolgerung stützen.

Fünf gängige Werkzeuge effektiver Argumentation:
Expertenmeinungen
Statistiken
Fakten
Beispiele
Logik

Du hast keines dieser Werkzeuge zu diesem Thema verwendet. Du hast dem Forum lediglich deine Meinung und eine Tatsache präsentiert. „Es läuft sehr ruhig.“ Meinungen, die über diese eine Tatsache hinausgehen, gelten nicht als Expertenmeinung, da du noch nie Windeln gewechselt hast. Wenn Sie Ihren Beitrag lesen, werden Sie feststellen, dass er nicht nur dem vorherigen widerspricht, sondern auch unbegründet ist. Wenn es hörbar leiser ist als die Stern- oder Dreieckwicklung, ist das an sich schon eine offensichtliche Verbesserung. Ich habe Ihnen anhand eines Videobeispiels gezeigt, dass Lärm die Leerlaufströme und -verluste erhöht.

[Clugh]

Ich bin sehr beschäftigt und arbeite in 12-Stunden-Schichten mit der Reparatur und Installation von Robotern und Werkzeugen für die Verarbeitung von SiC-Wafern. Wenn du also ernsthafte Fragen hast und echtes Feedback willst, musst du deine Aussagen belegen und Daten liefern. Ich habe keine Zeit für Spielchen. Dafür ist CL da. Ohne Daten gibt es nichts zu besprechen. Wenn du sie nicht lieferst, liegt das daran, dass die Engine so gut funktioniert. Ich weiß genau, was sie tut. So wie du es machst, werden deine Freunde nur zu Crash-Dummies.

Hör auf zu campen und nimm dir ein paar Tage Zeit, um Daten zu sammeln. Dann reden wir. Deine Freunde warten auf dich. Ich bin nicht wie Chris, der zu Hause sitzt und nichts übrig hat außer Zeit, über Unsinn zu streiten oder meine blöde Engine zu verkaufen.


TTYL
Hubert

[Clugh]

Du denkst wahrscheinlich, ich erzähle ständig Witze. Nein, Mann, ich meine es ernst. Sebastian hat noch nie etwas mit einem Hybrid-Außenrotor gemacht wie du. Die waren nicht ehrlich zu dir. Er hat nie etwas gewickelt und laufen lassen, natürlich hätte er es gepostet. Du solltest in deinem Forum nach seinen früheren Motorwicklungen suchen, um einen Hinweis darauf zu bekommen, was er gemacht hat. Tippen ist es. Es ist schwer für dich und Thomas, da ihr ständig im Wettbewerb steht. Ich bin sicher, er prüft das. Gib ihm Zeit. Er ist ziemlich negativ gegenüber allem, außer den billigen Witzbolden, für die er 300 Euro verlangt, also würde ich nicht viel Positives oder Hilfreiches erwarten. Er ist ein ziemlich negativer Typ.

alles ist Müll, außer seinen Witzbolden

[Clugh]

Ich habe dich zum Wickeln gedrängt, und du hast es getestet, und es lief. Mach jetzt die Parallelversion mit echtem Draht und teste sie richtig. Ich muss die Motoren für F3A fertigstellen. Die Zeit ist begrenzt.

[Clugh]

Cancellation of selected stator harmonics in BLDC by using an adaptive feedforward controller

Author links open overlay panelNezar Abou Qamar, Constantine J. Hatziadoniu

Highlights

• •
  In a BLDC non-sinusoidal EMF introduces current harmonics in the stator.
• •
  An adaptive feedforward controller (AFC) is proposed for the cancellation of the low order harmonics from the stator currents.
• •
  The AFC is integrated with a field-oriented controller (FOC) that regulates the speed.
• •
  A design process for selecting AFC parameters to provide a sufficient phase margin under wide range of motor speeds is introduced.
• •
  The AFC effectiveness is demonstrated in an experimental setup where the 5th and 7th stator current harmonic where significantly attenuated.

Zusammenfassung
Diese Arbeit stellt einen adaptiven Feedforward-Regler (AFC) zur Unterdrückung ausgewählter niederwertiger Harmonischer aus den Statorströmen eines bürstenlosen Gleichstrommotors (BLDC) mit nicht-sinusförmiger Flussverteilung vor. Bei richtiger Abstimmung kann der AFC ausgewählte Harmonische der Motor-Gegen-EMK verfolgen und die Statorspannung gegenmodulieren, um die induzierten Oberschwingungsströme zu kompensieren. Der vorgeschlagene AFC ist mit einem feldorientierten Regler (FOC) kombiniert, der die Motordrehzahl regelt, um die Statorspannungen bei den ausgewählten Oberschwingungsfrequenzen weiter zu modulieren. Diese Arbeit präsentiert experimentelle Ergebnisse, bei denen der AFC zur Unterdrückung der 5. und 7. Harmonischen entwickelt wurde. Die erzielten Ergebnisse bestätigen die Funktionalität des vorgeschlagenen Reglers und zeigen seine Wirksamkeit bei der signifikanten Verbesserung der Statorstromwellenform.

APD PRO HV is feed forward capable....

[Clugh]

Don't be confused Dr! This is the opposite end of the spectrum with BLAC commutation and a sinus machine. I think is that that your application has no use for because most of the action occurs at wide open throttle. Its BLDC there with most drives so what I offer you is this kind of thing is for better dynamic BLAC performance in an EV like e bikes. In our case we don't want to attenuate the 5th or 7th in the BLDC 10 or 14 pole machine. So the feed forward concept is not for you. unless you want to highlight or make better the pseudo sinus character with multi-layer 10 and 14 pole machines in 2,3, or 4 layers or maybe more. A conventional wye dual layer 10 pole motor has a more sinus character than the single layer delta which exhibits more BLDC character.

An adventurous one test it all to find out what actually works best for their application. You always look for improvement anywhere you can have it but this is my theory based on what I have been exposed too on what best for the 10 and 14 pole machine with six step drives at WOT.

Be mindful that those higher multi layers machines for clean sinus operation have slightly lower winding factors than the conventional wye wound machine. But because its so clean maybe its still a win with SVC FOC which always commutes 90 degrees perpendicular to the rotor.
Talega can do it and the low pass filtering as it is a SVC DSP based Motor control IC.

See the "Q" axis???
Theoretically its MTPA there. Thats on the inverter and commutation side of things. if you truly want to run SINUS you need a fully dedicated sinus drive and then you wind for sure those higher layer numbers. But one could still finalize it to an inner delta.

YGE nor Castle are these things and at WOT the castle runs cooler and already has significantly lower on resistance than the Yung generation electronic.

Happy harmonics!
Hubert

[Clugh]

You can see here a scorpion HK5020 single layer wye machine is not going to produce a sinus waveform. As you add winding layers interspersed you can create a more sinus wave form and of course go the other way and produce more trapezoidal or triangular wave form. Ideally you want to match it to the drive commutation style for the least amount of torque ripple. If you have a BLDC or 6 step drive it is intuitive to use a winding that moves you towards that goal in the motors generated Bemf production.

[Clugh]

U need to leave some real data Cap. 502 views and not one word...in the hybrid thread. What do you expect them to say and you haven't posted any data? They dont know anything about the hybrid Ralph. You do not have anything meaningful posted sir. You say you collected data. Where is it? It's pretty dead there otherwise. The entire gsm is waiting on you to leave data...

Where are the motor constants Ralph.

[Clugh]

Since then 12 views have looked for that data Ralph Okon.. If you do not leave motor constants the hobbyist can assume it works so well compared to what you normally wind you don't want to show it because you know I'm going to jump all over that.

If you cant leave data with the asinine editorials I will not help you or show you much more of the empirical . If you don't leave or even record data you are certainly not a go to authority on the subject matter.

If you are so intelligent it should not be difficult to explain to you the value of real and frank technical conversation about the subject matter. It is hard for me to take you seriously because anyone with common sense knows you leave data if you want to speak on something and be believed..

After 514 views not one there has responded to your inquiry. That should be evidence enough. You have at least two threads on the GSM titled wye - delta hybrids and not one has a wound motor running with data.

That's a real problem Dr.


Hubert