Alternative motor windings and drive schemes

[Clugh]

Hi Ralph

I see I have you on international speed dial bright and early That last post was at 4:07 😀So I know you like this silent one...and especially the dc excited 12N8P machine because all you need to do is design the laminated rotor out of silicon steel. Its very good for highspeed. No magnets.
Interesting about the dc excited machine is all the field weakening possibilities.This motor could run really fast if the mechanical integrity is there .





YT
Hubert

[Clugh]

Enjoy the IEEE Dr Okon because the all the motor winding forums in the USA are dead The 12N10P is a hybrid dc excited pmfsm And again it has a power factor of .98. So you see there is alot to be taken from them and her optimized geometry. You can also cut a dc/pmfsm hybrid stator to take toroidal dc coils. 🙈🙉🙊

[Clugh]

Hi! here is 22 pole external rotor lamination in .2mm electrical steel, You can sleeve this rotor stack in accordance to the application. And so the OD rotor stack is 62 mm. The armature is 50mm Do you want to copy my design Dr Okon? 👀 The 1mm thick pm is stable to 180C.

[Clugh]

[Clugh]

Hi Ralph

Here is what Gran Turismo posted about the stator comparisons years ago. Now on RC Groups he doesnt call the scorpion (Hyperion) the best..

"Hi Budy,
as you see you are in best hands.MiSt ,Michaels answers give you all you need to know.btw. i am not the inventor of the 10 and 14 pole motor system the true inventor was Zielinski and Schoepp from Poland, http://www.aerodesign.de/peter/2001/...0_Wroclaw.html ,this is the translated paper i gave to Peter Rother if you want to compere some motors with the same stator dia ,lengh and number of slots you can simple multiplicate kv X number of turns per phase . The motor with the lowest result will be the winner as it has the best designed magnetic circuit.i have done it a time ago with some outrunner motors ,here an example plate.

Typ kv wdg ~1/Fluss Fluss relativ
Torcster N5065/6: 394 x 12 = 4728 89%
Hacker A50-16L: 270 x 16 = 4320 97%
Conrad BO 4570-10: 430 x 10 = 4300 98%
Hacker A50-12L: 350 x 12 = 4200 100% -arbitrarily set to 100%
Hacker A50-14L: 300 x 14 = 4200 100%
Hyperion Z4035-12: 345 x 12 = 4140 101%
Conrad BO 4570-10/2: 400 x 10 = 4000 105%
Hyperion ZS4035-10: 354 x 10 = 3540 119%

You see the Hyperion (Scorpion) motor is the wins with the best magnetic circuit .
but there is as well a winner the cheap Conrad motor best price to quality."

posted 20.February.2014, 20:31 on rc raceboats.de

This is also the thread where I suggested supercaps and his friends Mist claimed they were not feasible in RC..

Back then it was all about pushing scorpion and selling your work to me.

😀

YT
Hubert

[Clugh]

The manufactures and hobby suppliers must have saw things the way I did., Yes the supercaps have a higher ESR but deliver so many more farads in a smaller package than any electrolytic. Clearly Mist doesn't care what the footprint of 1 farad at 20 volts looks like in electrolytic. Then get it in a model....😏 I had fast electric boat modelers tell me about 20 years ago ahead of brushless motors in hobby that the electrolytics I suggested on brushed speed controls would not work either. Forums simply are not always good sources of accurate information. A 5 volt button lithium supercap is 5 farads. But ive also suggested ceramics across the legs to compliment the electrolytics but then the drone esc makers got smart and use exclusively MLCC's although bulk electrolytics would handle the big slower transients better. Still to this day no one DIY compliments their electrolytics with MLCC's I've built such a complimentary bank. ill have to dig deep to find photos.

[Clugh]

Since we have a few items we can use for proof of concept we can print one and see if we can get it to run. I have some pm blanks stable to 180 that are 60mmx3mmx10mm so we can print up a 12N22P in 74mm so I could put together a 7460 in form factor and in the real version a scorpion knocker doesn't have a chance to match its torque potential.

Here is a plot ffrom the real Drs in the IEEE

Powercroco!
You can click the anonymous tab in you user settings but it still shows me the sign times. So enjoy the education you are still receiving here in America.


Regards
Hubert

[Clugh]

See you are on speed dial. You are definitely subscribed despite the anonymous setting Dr Okon.

Enjoy the knowledge you are receiving from the "engineers in the IEEE way". The only ones that can truly feed your curious mind.

Don't make excuses like Prototyp 12n14p YD | RC-Network.de

Tell Martin to build the machine if you cannot. He knows it all works if u are not true to the game...



TTYS
Hubert

[Clugh]

(6) Analytical design of a high-torque flux-switching permanent magnet machine by a simplified lumped parameter magnetic circuit model | Robert Nilssen - Academia.edu

No pm in the rotor also increases the rpm potential of the machine. You want a laminated rotor for lower iron loss.

[Clugh]

Some gurus compared it to the double salient permanent magnet brushless machine. If you are as smart as you say you are you can deduce quite a bit of optimization ques for the PMFSM from these IEEE fellows and seniors in this paper.

(6) Comparison of flux-switching and doubly-salient permanent magnet brushless machines | David Howe - Academia.edu

Lets see what you do empirically to revive interest on the German social media.



Regards
Hubert

[Clugh]

And Ralph...
I also never told Sebastian the winding heads would be too big Im not DC dependent man that would be with large mono and bifilar stranding you use exclusively. You can always wrap with wire >/=1mm in diameter or bundle in hand and wind multiple motors on top of one another interspersed and serially connected to attenuate harmonics and modal vibration in the core. In the smaller engine which is inherently less efficient optimization naturally should be even more the goal so I guess I don't understand "yalls" way. A machinist with a real lathe can also build accommodating rotors for taller winding heads look at the Lehner 41 for example.

[Clugh]

These are also tall single layer machine heads that fit under an align rotor that runs with a low idle current, so who is the tuner when we talk about what the limits are? He hasn't wound the machine so it also helps when someone tells you the truth. 🙉 He hasn't shown you data results or a picture of a wound stator. He is just talkin.....



Regards.
Hubert

[Clugh]

What you said to Sebastian Dr Okon is also incorrect about the fact the no hobby manufactures use a single layer. Sure they do. Lehner is a top hobby manufacture in Germany and they use a single layer topology on their outrunners.

You 2 dont know these 2 motors are single layers???

WOW....

Regards,
Hubert

[Clugh]

Alot of motor manufactures like Neumotors and TP Power for instance have custom winding options, That means the customer can ask for what they want 🤡 so if they want a single layer all they have to is ask for it and the major hobby manufacture will provide it...

Do you think fallacy by way of single cause and hasty generalizations is a scientific approach to determine why a wind would or would not be voluntarily offered by hobby manufactures to the masses anyway?

Thats madd science...ru sure you want to stake your scientific reputation on that? Everyone practically knows and accepts in the field the single layer is a more torque dense machine with a higher winding factor. The BEMF and it associated harmonics favor BLDC TRAP drives for max torque and efficiency which YGE really is not. It is a sinus drive. All the available empirical and analytical model data on the subject matter supports these ideas as well.🙄

Ralph!
Es würde Ihrer Argumentation helfen, wenn Sie einige veröffentlichte und anerkannte Peer-Daten aus dem Bereich der Elektrotechnik finden oder bereitstellen könnten, die diese Argumentation stützen. Ich weiß nicht, was man von einem Musiker in den deutschen sozialen Medien erwarten würde, der es noch nie gehört hat.

Es ist so viel einfacher, es für sich selbst aufzubringen, als seit Januar 2020 wie er im Kreis herumzulaufen und zu reden.


Ich sehe jetzt auch, dass Sie und Luke nichts Besseres zu tun haben, als über Innenrotorverbindungen und Verbundrotormaterialien zu streiten, mit denen Sie nicht arbeiten, weil keiner von Ihnen etwas druckt. Deine fähigen Freunde und Leute wie ich sind diejenigen, die diese Dinge tun ... 🙈🙉🙊

U guys should be the real you.

Thanks
Hubert

[Clugh]

Und wenn Sie von Wert sind, bauen Sie die DC-erregte Maschine für den Mann mit dem laminierten Stahlrotor, zeigen Sie ihm, wie das funktioniert, und benehmen Sie sich nicht mehr wie zwei Mädchen, die sich um eine Barbie-Puppe streiten.


I have 12 magnets here so ill build the PMFSM Proof of concept machine in a day and post everything here. We can also see if we can get it to run.

Evolve,
Hubert

[Clugh]

MIKEDE Rare Earth Magnets Bars, 20 Pack Extra Strong Neodymium Bar Magnets with Double-Sided Adhesive, Black Epoxy Waterproof Strong Neodymium Magnets - 60 x 10 x 3 mm: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific


Ok so you can get cheap the MIKEDE rare earth magnets are 60 x 3 x 10 stable to 180 C. Just like I have. At this pm dimension ill print a 12N14P PMFSM 7460 knockout! Then the DC excited machine in a 12/8 . I have a T600 we could modify for full steel version. I have silicon steel strip that can replace the rotors pm. I promise it wont take 4 years. Ive also been in conference with Bomatec to make a snakeline in the same dimension or whatever I settle on for the Endgültige Lösung! for the dark side.

[Clugh]

Hello
I have a new member here inquiring about single layer vs dual layers. What I will say is science has already examined this but the way to know is to test both versions in your model with your inverter and make the real comparisons. People have time to argue on forums but none to test anything. I'm better than that!

Hubert

[Clugh]

This is what we accept as the truth between the two no matter what hobbyist on Heli freaks say. Clearly each has an application and inverter they would prefer to work with. At this point I wouldn't look there at Heli freaks for any significant direction in motor winding. Especially if Bert Dekkar is done winding there. In the IEEE stock is taken in science not positive or negative stereotypes on social site posed as learning centers for hobbyist.. There is a difference.🙈🙉🙊 Heli freak never wanted the truth all the wanted was powercroco and that was never 1 in the same.


YT
Hubert

Ps this is Ralphs profile BTW. He is here everyday....

[Clugh]

Race roll

User

• March 26, 2023

• #44

"Well, if it's interesting for you, you can do it.
I'm not going to post any results here, as the main interest is to use the values to further fuel the dispute.
By the way, Hubert wrote years ago that with such small motors, the winding heads become too big.
You'll laugh though, I was still interested.
I have such a vintage high-decker that squeaks terribly at partial load, I have not been minimized by the controller settings so far that it is no longer annoying.
The Y-D runs very quietly.
You can also optimize for things other than speed flight."

Yeah they dont talk to me, because Im of American and African descent, just about me alot on their forums. I think its a funny post because the modeler has never wound the machine even though I provided him with all the scribes but there is the statements made.... he cant post any results because he does not have any to fuel any debate.😀

Besides there is no debate unless they are smarter than ABB and the 70 universities across the world that have already confirmed it. No to mention integral slot concentrated winding techniques are as old as Nikolas Tesla.


Anyway here's a discussion about the pyro.

PYRO 600-09 mit auffallenden Rastmoment | RC-Network.de all the characters are present. Enjoy the read.

It is no mystery that forum interest dies when nobody does anything new.

The Real 1BOHO

Come on... who is going to start a thread titled wye to delta hybrids ask alot of question to wind the machine then 4 years later claimed they wound it and have results but they dont want to share them or even a photo of the wound machine because they don't want to fuel a debate? Why not if them entering into the debate is already archived in cyberspace and why they started the thread in the first place? Make it make sense. Without real execution or debate there is no learning. At every turn of everyone else's result sharing including Ralph's he is right there, so I'd be very surprised if Ralph even buys that story.

😏

[Clugh]

Not that a forum cares, but in this winding world, what I was told is they didn't want to share results with Ralph . I say that's nonsense. I certainly plan to share results with him and anyone else that is interested in them I supposed they are worried about fielding his blowback. If you wind and test the machine you should have some ammunition then. Ralph has already wound a Dr Gerling style winding with uneven coil side ratios long ago but decided it could not be better than a conventional wye because it has longer end turn thus a higher dc resistance. I told Ralph that was immaterial and that he needed to examine the harmonic content of his BEMF waveforms. I don't know till this day what he did but he's here reading what I'm into these days and not saying a word so I suppose you could ask him. One issue I see from his Post about APD and YGE is that experiences synchronization loss with his YGE inverter. Without specific testing that could be any number of things but typically when that happens the motor simply cannot provide the static torque demanded of it and it slips. Honestly I don't think the wind has a lot to do with that unless there is possible added torque ripple from a mismatch and the further reduces the static pullout availability. That would be solved theoretically by stepping to a FOC based inverter or running a trap drive with a trap winding which a dual layer is not. I think the experience of the hobbyist there is mostly limited to yge and sobek drives Jazz inverter which is not a high voltage or amperage drive.

Again....
You can always ask him what he did with the Gerling wind....User Profile - Hobby Squawk RC Forum for Airplanes, Boats, Cars, Helicopters, Tanks, and Trucks



Regards
Hubert