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Freewing Su-35 Twin 70mm 12 blade

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  • Originally posted by Airguardian View Post

    It kinda is, particularly if you run CGs like what I suggest (160-170mm).
    So, you may get away without expo for limited throws, but if you are using full throws as I am, then hell sure you SHOULD use a huge dose of expo to compensate for it.
    And to those that hate on using full throws, know that I am using them all the time for extreme maneuvers, so yes, you lose capability by limiting your throws. Limiting throws is a sound idea to perform precision aerobatics and formation flight... and to an extent, they can help in landing but that's it. I'd rather have the full throws at my command whenever I feel like it ;)
    thanks for your replay , i think i will follow your advice by start at 160mm for the CG location and see haw it will go from there. along with that i will go for 3 D/R setups. one with 100% throw and 50% expo ( urs ) the second with 80% throw and 0% expo , the third 65% throw and 0% expo just for my sake to feel comfortable that i have my usual setup at my finger tips

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    • Originally posted by Airguardian View Post

      Why wouldn't you????

      You are missing on one of the (if not THE) greatest assets of this jet! :|



      I guarantee you will be overcorrecting if you use full throws and no expo with a decently close-to-neutral CG on this one.
      Also, expo in the range of 10-30% is often useless and a nuisance more than anything else.
      I'd rather go straight to values over 40% or not at all.
      If you have tried to use expo in the past while being conservative with expo values, that could explain your bad experience with it.

      Mind that the response of the full flying stabs (particularly on the SU-35) is NOT linear, so using a linear curve does not guarantee linear control.
      Good expo/throws combinations can get you closer to that linear feel but need to test it out and fine tune to your likings.
      i thought that the real SU-35 doesnt use TV for rudder ( correct me if i'm wrong ) and i was thinking about making it look as scale as possible .
      can u enlighten me about what u mean when u said You are missing on one of the (if not THE) greatest assets of this jet! :|

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      • My SU35 cg is set here at 160mm back

        Click image for larger version

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        • Originally posted by masterssls1 View Post

          well i have to say the paint job on the su-35 is stunning . although this might sound stupid , but i still don't know which paint and which technique u used to paint it ? is it by brush or spray can? water base or thinner ?
          This could take a while so I have sent a private message to explain how it was all done as the explanations could be used by some to cure insomnia

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          • Today my 4th Su-35 (Lyuda) reached 300 flights, w00t! :D

            Originally posted by masterssls1 View Post
            thanks for your replay , i think i will follow your advice by start at 160mm for the CG location and see haw it will go from there. along with that i will go for 3 D/R setups. one with 100% throw and 50% expo ( urs ) the second with 80% throw and 0% expo , the third 65% throw and 0% expo just for my sake to feel comfortable that i have my usual setup at my finger tips
            For the 100% throw, better use 50% expo in roll (assuming you set up active tailerons) and 60% for pitch.
            For the no-expo setup, I'd rather go with 60-70% throws rather than 80 if you want to test it. But I stand by my recommendation of using high expo on this jet.

            Originally posted by masterssls1 View Post
            i thought that the real SU-35 doesnt use TV for rudder ( correct me if i'm wrong ) and i was thinking about making it look as scale as possible.
            It does not... but the nozzles are canted at a 30-32º axis, so when used differentially they produce a yaw component in addition to roll.
            Unless you dismount and reglue the nozzles so they pivot at the correct angle, it will not be scale either. You could get the scale differential movement by mixing yaw and roll together on the nozzles, but the pitch would still be different (Unless you install two servos for the yaw, one for each nozzle to be able to mix it... or as mentioned, changing the nozzle alignment so they are canted at the same axis).

            Originally posted by masterssls1 View Post
            can u enlighten me about what u mean when u said You are missing on one of the (if not THE) greatest assets of this jet! :|
            The point of thrust vectoring nozzles is to retain control when the jet is at or near 0-speed conditions, and arguably the yaw axis is the most important one to be able to control in those conditions... and you are outright dismissing it. At least if you cant the nozzles axis like on the full scale jet you will have scale yaw control, but just removing the yaw servo will not cut it.
            Plus you would need to fix one of the nozzles' axis if you remove the yaw servo, which is a nuisance.

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            • [QUOTE=Airguardian;n328172]Today my 4th Su-35 (Lyuda) reached 300 flights, w00t! :D

              Was that with the fms fans and do we get to see a video of the 300th

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              • Yes, that was with the FMS fans! (Have like 10-15 flights on them now).
                There was no one to film my 300th flight sadly, but I have new videos coming featuring the FMS fans all the same, so keep tuned! ;)

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                • Originally posted by masterssls1 View Post

                  i thought that the real SU-35 doesnt use TV for rudder ( correct me if i'm wrong ) and i was thinking about making it look as scale as possible .
                  :|
                  When it's flying you won't be able to see if the nozzles are moving in yaw anyway. And the VT nozzles themselves aren't exactly scale.
                  Attached Files

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                  • Originally posted by masterssls1 View Post

                    i thought that the real SU-35 doesnt use TV for rudder ( correct me if i'm wrong ) and i was thinking about making it look as scale as possible .
                    can u enlighten me about what u mean when u said You are missing on one of the (if not THE) greatest assets of this jet! :|
                    Don't sacrifice flight realism for some minor scale detail.

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                    • Originally posted by kallend View Post

                      When it's flying you won't be able to see if the nozzles are moving in yaw anyway. And the VT nozzles themselves aren't exactly scale.
                      Originally posted by radfordc View Post

                      Don't sacrifice flight realism for some minor scale detail.
                      my target from doing that is not to look scale , u can barely see the plan in the air , what i was trying to achieve is to get the plane to fly and moreover like a scale jet. so if this cant achive that by disabling the TV for rudder then there is no point ..

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                      • Originally posted by Airguardian View Post
                        Today my 4th Su-35 (Lyuda) reached 300 flights, w00t! :D






                        It does not... but the nozzles are canted at a 30-32º axis, so when used differentially they produce a yaw component in addition to roll.
                        Unless you dismount and reglue the nozzles so they pivot at the correct angle, it will not be scale either. You could get the scale differential movement by mixing yaw and roll together on the nozzles, but the pitch would still be different (Unless you install two servos for the yaw, one for each nozzle to be able to mix it... or as mentioned, changing the nozzle alignment so they are canted at the same axis).



                        The point of thrust vectoring nozzles is to retain control when the jet is at or near 0-speed conditions, and arguably the yaw axis is the most important one to be able to control in those conditions... and you are outright dismissing it. At least if you cant the nozzles axis like on the full scale jet you will have scale yaw control, but just removing the yaw servo will not cut it.
                        Plus you would need to fix one of the nozzles' axis if you remove the yaw servo, which is a nuisance.
                        congratulations man :))
                        thanks for the information Airguardian ,there is one thing that i should of said at the beginning that somehow i forgot to mention ,, this is my first TV jet ,, i never flew a JET with TV before so when u guy guys talk about what i will miss , i honesty didnt know what i will miss ( does that change anything ?) lol

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                        • Originally posted by masterssls1 View Post

                          congratulations man :))
                          thanks for the information Airguardian ,there is one thing that i should of said at the beginning that somehow i forgot to mention ,, this is my first TV jet ,, i never flew a JET with TV before so when u guy guys talk about what i will miss , i honesty didnt know what i will miss ( does that change anything ?) lol
                          It does when you hit the elevator for the first time on take off

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                          • Originally posted by paulrkytek View Post

                            It does when you hit the elevator for the first time on take off
                            😂😂

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                            • Remember what we all post is our opinions on a model airplane and how they set up and fly the plane may not result in an airplane flying how you would like it to. That said I do agree with the quite rearward balance point that others have mentioned. I no longer have mine but I remember it being balance at the rectangular opening under the wing.

                              I like a very maneuverable aircraft.

                              I found the plane lacking in roll even with TV and with tailerons it was OK... Pit and yaw are excellent due to the TV's. While I typically like expo in the range of 20/30/40% for my surfaces with triple rates I did use a bit higher amounts of expo on this, I believe about 30/40/60 but again expo is a personal taste thing.

                              It really is a special aircraft and if FW could release a newer version with better foam, servos and retracts and maintain the same low weight at a reasonable cost I'd happilt get another.

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                              • More so since it is your first TV jet, I'd encourage you to fly with the nozzles as they come and then maybe experiment with stuff later on! ;)

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                                • Originally posted by Airguardian View Post
                                  More so since it is your first TV jet, I'd encourage you to fly with the nozzles as they come and then maybe experiment with stuff later on! ;)
                                  sorry i didnt get what u meant by fly with the nozzles as they come? u meant without taileron or without TV ?

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                                  • Originally posted by Evan D View Post
                                    Remember what we all post is our opinions on a model airplane and how they set up and fly the plane may not result in an airplane flying how you would like it to. That said I do agree with the quite rearward balance point that others have mentioned. I no longer have mine but I remember it being balance at the rectangular opening under the wing.

                                    I like a very maneuverable aircraft.

                                    I found the plane lacking in roll even with TV and with tailerons it was OK... Pit and yaw are excellent due to the TV's. While I typically like expo in the range of 20/30/40% for my surfaces with triple rates I did use a bit higher amounts of expo on this, I believe about 30/40/60 but again expo is a personal taste thing.

                                    It really is a special aircraft and if FW could release a newer version with better foam, servos and retracts and maintain the same low weight at a reasonable cost I'd happilt get another.
                                    i was actually expecting freewing to release a due 80mm EPO foam version of this aircraft a year ago .. i hope that happens soon enough.
                                    the plane that i found that it lacks in roll is the mig so i hope this will be better without tailerons

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                                    • Originally posted by masterssls1 View Post

                                      sorry i didnt get what u meant by fly with the nozzles as they come? u meant without taileron or without TV ?
                                      Definitely not without TV, if you don`t have the tv servos active and you accidentally knock the units then you have no way of neutralizing them again. If you check through Air Guardian build video you will find a setup position for the tvs and you really need active servos to ensure you have the tv pitch, yaw and roll alignment correct to start with for normal flight. If you need to trim the rudder or pitch or roll after first flight you will need to re check tv alignment afterwards to ensure they are back to the "neutral" position . No doubt this is why Air Guardian suggests separate trim/TV switch. Basically this way you can probably take off on first flight using tv, get up high, switch tv off, trim the plane and switch it back on again. ? Tailerons are up to you, you probably dont need them for pottering about , loops, rolls, inverted, wingovers, high alpha, basic aerobatics . I guess it depends on how you want to fly, how skillful you are and how far you want to push the envelope? No doubt tailerons will give higher degree of control and maneuverability and help you out of an awkward situation if needed.
                                      Its always worth eyeballing the tv setup anyway after the first flight as I have an inbuilt mistrust of switches and my ability to knock them on and off without realizing it

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                                      • Originally posted by paulrkytek View Post

                                        Definitely not without TV, if you don`t have the tv servos active and you accidentally knock the units then you have no way of neutralizing them again. If you check through Air Guardian build video you will find a setup position for the tvs and you really need active servos to ensure you have the tv pitch, yaw and roll alignment correct to start with for normal flight. If you need to trim the rudder or pitch or roll after first flight you will need to re check tv alignment afterwards to ensure they are back to the "neutral" position . No doubt this is why Air Guardian suggests separate trim/TV switch. Basically this way you can probably take off on first flight using tv, get up high, switch tv off, trim the plane and switch it back on again. ? Tailerons are up to you, you probably dont need them for pottering about , loops, rolls, inverted, wingovers, high alpha, basic aerobatics . I guess it depends on how you want to fly, how skillful you are and how far you want to push the envelope? No doubt tailerons will give higher degree of control and maneuverability and help you out of an awkward situation if needed.
                                        Its always worth eyeballing the tv setup anyway after the first flight as I have an inbuilt mistrust of switches and my ability to knock them on and off without realizing it
                                        good point , forgot about accidents 👍 but the first flight has to be a bone stock so once i start playing with the other custom setups i will be able to tell the difference. unless the stock setup has a fatal issue that can cause crash

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                                        • Originally posted by masterssls1 View Post

                                          good point , forgot about accidents 👍 but the first flight has to be a bone stock so once i start playing with the other custom setups i will be able to tell the difference. unless the stock setup has a fatal issue that can cause crash
                                          I believe you are overthinking this.

                                          Although the SU can outfly just about any other EDF out there, it is really a very well behaved and quite benign aircraft and not at all twitchy or difficult. It won't take you by surprise, it will just do what you tell it to do.

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