Official Freewing F/A-18C Hornet 90mm EDF Thread

[Aros]

High Strangeness DCORSAIR....Glad she is still safe and sound. I feel I misspoke when I said 25-30% power at full throttle...It wasn't that bad...Maybe closer to 40-50% power. I will check it with my wattmeter for sure. The battery has seen a few dozen cycles and been in two crashes total so I will definitely try with my other one and compare the results.

[fredmdbud]

re: lack of power - have you experimented with changing the ESC toming?

[Aros]

re: lack of power - have you experimented with changing the ESC toming?

Do you mean timing? No I haven't nor I shouldn't because they come from the factory pre-calibrated for timing. I have many of the new gen jets from FW and haven't had this issue.

[fredmdbud]

Do you mean timing? No I haven't nor I shouldn't because they come from the factory pre-calibrated for timing. I have many of the new gen jets from FW and haven't had this issue.

Yes, timing - that's what happens you're tapping on an iPhone with autocorrect turned off.

ESC's are solid-state including the memory, and if they haven't been powered up for a while they can lose their settings, among other reasons. I see the same thing with receivers in planes I haven't flown in a while and need to re-bind them.

Like the oft-given advice about ARF's and PNP's, assume nothing, check everything ...

[Aros]

True, due diligence and all of that but this is a brand new model I just put together days ago. Should I really check the timing of the ESC? I have never once had to do that before. I don't mean to sound argumentative, more of an honest question.

[slamdance64]

DCORSAIR, I used to fly a Yellow Aircraft F-18 back in the DF days. When we put in lots of flap, it did some strange things. It looks like they may be blanking the Elevators. Mine was set with Tailerons only and I had to take out some flap and just live with it. I plan on picking one of these up to relive my youth. :-)

[HellHathNoFury]

True, due diligence and all of that but this is a brand new model I just put together days ago. Should I really check the timing of the ESC? I have never once had to do that before. I don't mean to sound argumentative, more of an honest question.

I check timing on every model I buy because I don’t trust the Factory .. Luckily HW escs are easy to check & program with a Card.. Factory settings are usually Med from all the Hw escs I’ve come across..Because I use Inrunners I use Low timing .. Also the cutoff voltage is set higher than I would like so I change it to the lowest cutoff voltage.. Cheaper to lose a Battery than a Plane.. Not that I run my batteries to LVC but a personal safety margin..:)

[xviper]

True, due diligence and all of that but this is a brand new model I just put together days ago. Should I really check the timing of the ESC? I have never once had to do that before. I don't mean to sound argumentative, more of an honest question.

I guess for lack of other causes, it doesn't hurt to check. If you know the type of ESC, you can use the appropriate programming card. Hook it up and it will tell you immediately what the timing is. Or you can use the beep tones to listen for what it is. I think most of today's ESCs are set to "auto" timing and if it "forgets", I would think that's what it defaults to.
Have you tried accessing the fan and turning the motor back and forth and listen for any loose bits inside? All the connections and wiring are solid? Not coming apart? Insulation not cut and touching something?

[PeterVHS]

Taileron/Stabilators have almost zero load as they are pivoted at the MAC (well, very close to it). They have less load than a normal tailplane/elevator setup. Huge throws or not.
They are also less effective and need large throws - compared to tailplane/elevator setups. You might look at them and think "they are huge!"... but they are not as effective as their size would make you think.
The 'near zero load' means the servo loads are not 'huge' or anything....under normal forwards flight uses.
If the airflows become 'different' than typical forwards flight THEN their large surfaces will become huge loads on the servos. When the MAC is not the normal state/position - like for eg if the aircraft was flying backwards the MAC is a totally different position then - and then the pivot not being at the new different MAC means it is not zero loads anymore. You are unlikely to fly backwards.... lol... unless doing a tail slide(!!).... but even other 'just not straight and linear' situations can move the loads to be higher. It is just a matter of what situations (airflows) you get the aircraft into, whether loads will ever be overly high or not. (even a Flat Spin is of no notable load issue).

So for the majority of cases encountered, the stock servos do not have a difficult job at all.
In full scale aircraft that don't use FBW they use various methods of ADDING load to Taileron/Stabilator so that the pilot actually has some resistance to 'feel' by - otherwise it would be 'zero' load and no feel. And these aircraft never do 'not normal flying motions', eg they fly forwards always, so the only criteria that matters is the normal expected MAC and force resultants (near zero).

All these Freewing FFS aircraft have poor tolerances on the pivot systems..... but 'luckily' a FFS being quite an ineffective device (versus what it looks like it would achieve) means the freeplay they have does not cause a lot of 'error' anyway.
Whilst I do not like the freeplay.... in any aircraft at all and thus I remove it.... it is not a huge issue if you do not.

[HellHathNoFury]

If I ever buy a PNP I always run the fan/esc on a Wattmeter to check the numbers .. Also to check if connections are good & balance the Fan if necessary..Nothing worse than a vibrating fan in flt..

[Jetman64]

I hear you all, I do. We're all entitled to our opinions as to the value of any consumer product and what we individually feel is "worth" the money we're paying. That's all well and good discourse. I've heard feedback across out entire product price spectrum from $5 wheels to $500 airplanes as to what the customer expects for the price they paid. Some love it, some hate it, and they make their purchase decisions accordingly. As a fellow consumer, I do the same. That's all useful, valuable feedback, and I know I and all of us at Motion RC depend on that kind of feedback so let's all keep it coming.

But as regards the stereotype that factory workers make "a dollar an hour", I have to pause and raise my hand, as someone who works alongside these people in China every day, and civilly ask that we all retire the outdated stereotype of "a dollar an hour". Not just because it's false (try multiplying that by 6x-10x on average for the Shenzhen industrial region in 2019), but because it perpetuates the notion that this is simple, unskilled work, done without years of workforce training, dozens of integrated suppliers, specialized engineers, and millions of dollars of equipment. I'd encourage readers to check out my "How A Foam Aircraft is Made" article in this month's Model Aviation magazine for more information in this context, so as not to derail this F-18 Discussion thread entirely. I've visited over 140 factories and suppliers in China over the years, including almost every RC supplier we can think of, in addition to other tech industries such as Foxconn, DJI, Huawei, Bose, consumer laptops, various camera manufacturers, even a vacuum cleaner factory (random). No one is making a dollar an hour.

Yes, issues with RC PNPs will happen occasionally, and unfortunately No, money can't guarantee perfect consumer products for every single unit (just ask Samsung, Apple, DJI, Tesla, VW, Sony, GE, etc). But those companies, like ours, continue to diligently seek solutions with the resources available to preempt problems, improve consistency, and enhance user experience and the customer's assessment of the "value" of the product in question. There's no difference between those multi-billion dollar giants and the hobby industry supply chains, except a matter of scale.

I'm game for any criticism based on facts or feedback based on experience, so I'd ask that we please keep the focus on those in this thread. And, if at all possible, if we can return the conversation in this thread more specifically to the Freewing 90mm F-18. We can all explore the value proposition of general PNP hobby goods in a separate thread if someone wanted to create one. I'd actually welcome that discussion in good spirit.

Well said Alpha, any consumer (any educated consumer(smart consumers do their research before buying)) knows what their getting before they purchase any product. I have a cornucopia of RC Planes, from tiny UMX to a 45lb Super Galeb Turbine Jet and even my $2500 Turbine engine required some work before using. When you buy a “Brand new House (turn key)”, does it not need work to? When and if the day comes, that I buy a PNP Plane/Jet and it says, just put together and fly. I’m still going go over it with a fine tooth comb. It’s just the smart thing to do and I’m sure most of the pilots here, would do the same thing. My F-18C PNP has issues, but they’ll get resolved and Freewing will be better for it, as will all of us. Sorry for getting sidetracked, let’s get back to getting this F-18C. I’m still Blown away at what you guys are doing Alpha, foam, glass or balsa, it’s hard to tell the difference, but I’d really like to see a F-102/105 or a A-7ll in the 80/90mm, any chance on this Alpha?

[Woodcock]

I hear you all, I do. We're all entitled to our opinions as to the value of any consumer product and what we individually feel is "worth" the money we're paying. That's all well and good discourse. I've heard feedback across out entire product price spectrum from $5 wheels to $500 airplanes as to what the customer expects for the price they paid. Some love it, some hate it, and they make their purchase decisions accordingly. As a fellow consumer, I do the same. That's all useful, valuable feedback, and I know I and all of us at Motion RC depend on that kind of feedback so let's all keep it coming.

But as regards the stereotype that factory workers make "a dollar an hour", I have to pause and raise my hand, as someone who works alongside these people in China every day, and civilly ask that we all retire the outdated stereotype of "a dollar an hour". Not just because it's false (try multiplying that by 6x-10x on average for the Shenzhen industrial region in 2019), but because it perpetuates the notion that this is simple, unskilled work, done without years of workforce training, dozens of integrated suppliers, specialized engineers, and millions of dollars of equipment. I'd encourage readers to check out my "How A Foam Aircraft is Made" article in this month's Model Aviation magazine for more information in this context, so as not to derail this F-18 Discussion thread entirely. I've visited over 140 factories and suppliers in China over the years, including almost every RC supplier we can think of, in addition to other tech industries such as Foxconn, DJI, Huawei, Bose, consumer laptops, various camera manufacturers, even a vacuum cleaner factory (random). No one is making a dollar an hour.

Yes, issues with RC PNPs will happen occasionally, and unfortunately No, money can't guarantee perfect consumer products for every single unit (just ask Samsung, Apple, DJI, Tesla, VW, Sony, GE, etc). But those companies, like ours, continue to diligently seek solutions with the resources available to preempt problems, improve consistency, and enhance user experience and the customer's assessment of the "value" of the product in question. There's no difference between those multi-billion dollar giants and the hobby industry supply chains, except a matter of scale.

I'm game for any criticism based on facts or feedback based on experience, so I'd ask that we please keep the focus on those in this thread. And, if at all possible, if we can return the conversation in this thread more specifically to the Freewing 90mm F-18. We can all explore the value proposition of general PNP hobby goods in a separate thread if someone wanted to create one. I'd actually welcome that discussion in good spirit.

Ya know I think every one is kind missing my point here and feel the need to clarify. I probably convoluted my embellishment of the cheep labor by which all these products are manufactured with. I think they do a good job, lets leave it at that.

When you add a magic box to the mix, the, "FACT IS" you are essentially doubling the electrical points for possible failure. This isn't even counting the additional added electrical points of failure within the magic box it's self. Add to that a ganged multi circuit wing connector, this adds more potential points of failure. These Facts are undeniably true. It isn't just FW, FL. It's everyone's product that come with a higher potential of possible failure who employs these devices.

This is why I never use these magic boxes in any of my personal airplanes, even if it comes with them. This was the specific point of my posting. I don't even use servo extensions, except when I extend the servo wire by soldering and shrink wrapping my self when needed, which is almost always when I get a plane with a magic box. This is also a, "FACT".

I know why they add these sorts of things, it's primary reason is to make things simpler for the end user. I get it. I just have to learn to keep my mouth close in regards to opinions. My purpose for bringing this up? To try to add something to some of my forum friends to help them keep their prize models in the air, not to bash some person down in Asia that is trying to simply make a living.

W

[xviper]

But, but, but ............................ they're "MAGIC". :Silly: I don't remember who coined the word "magic" for these things. There's nothing "magic" about them. The purpose was and is well intended, logical design and a bit ingenious, just their execution (read "manufacture") is sometimes "off". If they were really magical, they probably would work all the time.

[HellHathNoFury]

But, but, but ............................ they're "MAGIC". :Silly: I don't remember who coined the word "magic" for these things. There's nothing "magic" about them. The purpose was and is well intended, logical design and a bit ingenious, just their execution (read "manufacture") is sometimes "off". If they were really magical, they probably would work all the time.

You mean Tragic :PI really like the idea but out of all the Freewing planes I have sooner or later issues arise .. Call me unlucky but it is what it is.. I have no issues with reYing the connections.. I gotta find use of the 2 big bags of different lengths Y connections hoarded over the Years LOL

[Woodcock]

But, but, but ............................ they're "MAGIC". :Silly: I don't remember who coined the word "magic" for these things. There's nothing "magic" about them. The purpose was and is well intended, logical design and a bit ingenious, just their execution (read "manufacture") is sometimes "off". If they were really magical, they probably would work all the time.

OK ya made me laugh. : )

[RCjetdude]

For the record, I have ditched the flap to aileron and taileron mixing after the maiden flight was a bit screwy. Trims from one mode to the other created some touchy situations. I landed it without flaps and returned it to stock configuration. Flew it about 5 more times after that and it was fine. Mine has plenty of power and flies great!

[fredmdbud]

Did you mean this by "magic"? But the picture doesn't show the "super-duper" magic box inside ...

[DCORSAIR]

DCORSAIR, I used to fly a Yellow Aircraft F-18 back in the DF days. When we put in lots of flap, it did some strange things. It looks like they may be blanking the Elevators. Mine was set with Tailerons only and I had to take out some flap and just live with it. I plan on picking one of these up to relive my youth. :-)

Oh really, good to know this on the F-18, I flew the YA F-4 and F-16 back in the days of high reving OS .91 with a JMP pipe, those were the days of DF jets, these foamies are so much more fun to me, no mess, no tuning, just pop another battery in off you go, do miss the smoke trail of nitro but thats about it.
I plan on flying this F-18 until I get it right, I had it flying nicely and landings are a thing of beauty, I want to see what others think when using full span flaps because mine just does some weird things, it isn't rock solid like my Phantom was or F-22, will report back when I get more flights on it.:Cool:

[DCORSAIR]

You mean Tragic :PI really like the idea but out of all the Freewing planes I have sooner or later issues arise .. Call me unlucky but it is what it is.. I have no issues with reYing the connections.. I gotta find use of the 2 big bags of different lengths Y connections hoarded over the Years LOL

MRC is making a fortune off me, bought more of their leads and Y harnesses, time to stock up again, haven't had one issue with leads they sell but I do cut the ends off and solder up my own lengths and what I need, if I keep buying these jets with BB boxes I will need more wiring, I think it would be a great idea to offer no BB with these kits, it wouldn't be that hard to leave it out, might lower the cost about $5.............:)

[fredmdbud]

You can always buy cable and connectors bulk and create custom ones to your length & # of splits requirements.