Alternative motor windings and drive schemes

[Clugh]

You can certainly find high voltage electrolytic caps that can deliver that type of instantaneous amperage but you still have to find the high voltage source to charge them.

BUT have you ever seen or heard the arch flash at just a 480 V 600 ampere fuse tripped from a dead short?. You can mess this one up not knowing what you are doing if you want to.



You gone have one time to "f" it up an you will not have to worry about it ever again cap because you are done if you get hit !!!

Ya exit is gone be like my boy in Bayern without the chute !!!





But seriously if you find some transformers that can push it you can build something. if you take the right precaution you can do it safely. I've seen lower voltage magnet zappers systems around 600 volts with 600 volt caps so you might get away using transformers out of a commercial microwave oven to charge them.

[Clugh]

A deeper idea of what is involved with post assembly magnetization if you want to magnetize the non polarized segments. So you have unpolarized pm material that you can easily glue into place then magnetize them after the rotor is assembled.. Note the voltages and amperages involved in a two shot method out of their magnetizer. The last time I've seen that much juice is servicing huge industrial spot welders at Daimler that welded the Body ribbing on the school busses. The huge cables to the spot welders were water cooled.. This huge thing probably is water or oil cooled in the caps and high voltage transformers.

This is truly how you pull motor magnet segmentation off if you do not buy pre segmented pm
Post-Assembly Magnetization of Rare-Earth Fractional-Slot Surface Permanent-Magnet Machines Using a Two-Shot Method

• M. Hsieh, Yao-Min Lien, David G. Dorrell
• Published in IEEE transactions on industry… 3 October 2011
• Engineering, Physics

[Clugh]

How do you on the GSM talk about motor improvement with purely a winding then suggest any of these other methods anyway? They are not windings and have nothing to do with winding. This is rotor and pm manufacture. A pressed pre fabricated litz coils is also not hand wound.

you want motor improvement with purely a wind but dont want to change what you currently wind.

Make that make sense...

Show me some data and they will acknowledge you again.




The P650 5Y + 9D parallel hybrid in 22awg
Kv 1072
Rm 28.3 milliohms
Io .7 amps @ 16.5 volts

Till then you are welcomed to look here and figure each other out because we plan to keep doing what we do here in the American winding program.

Bi Bi...
Hubert

[Clugh]

[Clugh]

Shown for the umpteenth time plus 1

[Clugh]

You can get whole pre segmented pm from places like Arnold Magnetics but these companies are not set up to accommodate privateers. You could get a free working sample well before you could get a small production run. They want volume to do it and that cost major coin.

[Clugh]

Hier versucht dein neuer Freund, mich dazu zu bringen, segmentierte Magnete zu kaufen, um dich, wie er sagt, zu „schockieren“. Aber ich bin schlau genug, um zu wissen, was der Typ dann tun würde: Er würde behaupten, er hätte Hugh erfunden. Ich kenne den Mann so gut.
Er ist begeistert von meinen Spulen und findet sie wieder aktuell. Jetzt stimmt er deinem Beitrag zu dem Thema zu. Siehst du, wie lustig das ist? Er ist ein verrückter Bruder..:dizzy_face:

Am Mittwoch, den 24. Juli 2024, um 9:13:36 Uhr EDT schrieb Christian Lucas <ch.lucas@gmx.net>:

Da Sie die Effizienz verbessern möchten, ist die beste Methode, den Crocoman zu schocken, die Anschaffung segmentierter Magnete. Vielleicht hilft ein sehr dünnes Diamanttrennrad oder der Kauf kleiner Magnete, die in die Rotorglocke eingeklebt werden. Das reduziert Wirbelströme deutlich. Hans Lehner und ich haben unsere Bootsmotoren auf diese Weise optimiert und erfolgreich gemacht. Denken Sie darüber nach. Ihre Wicklung ist auf dem neuesten Stand der Technik, und der wärmeleitende Kleber ist der beste Weg, die thermische Optimierung des Motors zu verbessern. Die Reduzierung der Magnetwärme ist der nächste Schritt zur Verbesserung Ihrer Motoren.

Grüße und allen Respekt, Christian
Von meinem iPhone gesendet

In english

On Wednesday, July 24, 2024 at 09:13:36 AM EDT, Christian Lucas <ch.lucas@gmx.net> wrote:


As you are on the way to improve efficancy , the best way to shock the crocoman, is it possible for you to get segmented magnets ? Maybe a very thin diamond cutting wheel will help, or to buy small magnets and glue the in the rotorbell. This will reduce eddy current realy much . Hans Lehner and i we have tuned our boat motors this way and win . Think about it. Your winding is state of art and the thermal conductiv glue is the way to improve the motor thermal optimisation. Less magnet heat will be the next step you can improve your motors.

Regardes and all respect , Christian
Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Now he's on the German forum agreeing with the "Croco man" that a hybrid wound motor is useless for a speed pilot.

"Shocking" isnt it.?

:woozy_face:.

Yet the hybrid wind on any motor I wind will remove the heat from the magnets without making it his Lehner 41. So I do not need segmentation and neither does any one else that adopts the most current winding technology.....

The Aluminum Oxide and Boron Nitride infused epoxies I already use take care of the rest. So please enjoy your new discoveries in these materials and winding practices that will eliminate the need for magnet segmentation which when done right uses post assembly magnetization not a damn diamond Dremel wheel anyway. That's not how Hanz does it. .... with a Dremel wheel and polarized magnets already glued iinto the ball. That is nutz from the get go, and would waste alot magnet volume and available space at the width of the wheel. That is also additive for all the radial slices.

He wont be setting me up to make a fool out of myself coz that bs he suggested with the Dremel wheel wont work out well anyway. YOU go ahead and try it but you did already Ralph and it DID NOT WORK DID IT?

You're smoking if you think that's how this 41 LMT rotors segmented pm's were manufactured.... its post assembly magnetization all day and with the Lehner 2 pole inrunner its really easy. Just like his slot cars in fact. Do you see how tigghtly the segments sit to one another/ This is not done with a freaking Dremel diamond cutoff wheel and it ensure you regain the magnet volume to have very thin insulation between the close segments. An insulative thermally conductive epoxy that doesn't brittle and can take mechanical shock would be ideal

With the 10 pole motor you need an elaborate fixture with a degree wheel and an exaggerated core. it also will be zapped in two shots at different locations to be fully magnetized and you can go too far with the juice so you really need to know the amperage require for the PM you use to do it correctly.. The Bavarian knows full well all these things have to occur for it to be done correctly and the voltages and capacitors needed can knock you down. Go ahead and listen to him . the only other way is to insert the magnet pieces heated to curie. If you go too far with the heat you'll still have to zap it

I laugh at the emails and save them for times just like these when Mr. is in manic mode Ralph!....as a physician you can diagnose Mania much better than me and you're licensed to hand out a prescription for some relief.. you need to work out a weekly regimen for him.


Danke
Hubert

[Clugh]

Hi Ralph,

You here like usual.....

I can get the silver wire 250 feet at about 12.60 cent a foot. I can very well order just enough and build them the precious metal machine for about 1500.00 dollars and it would have a much lower resistance and higher thermal capacity than what you wind there and Anakin's aluminum coils that are the worst conductors in that noisy open slot contraption of his. It would be very eazy to get around your thoughts and ignorance about the DCR and if the motor last forever versus what they get with your knockers .Its is well worth it. Until you make a change the motors wont run any better. The only time its hit 603km/h is with the APD HV PRO controlling it.

An eta of 93% is pretty standard so I don't know why you two think youare it. All the high end brands can do at least that. Armageddon hasn't done it YET!

He couldn't buy the speeding ticket if he wanted to but he sure spends alot on your scorpion motors to never get there. But at least he knows how to protect his YGE 320 from it.

u2 could not be more brilliant than to enter into technical debates without an iota of data or video to support it.

The P650 5Y + 9D parallel hybrid in 22awg
Kv 1072
Rm 28.3 milliohms
Io .7 amps @ 16.5 volts


were waiting.....

where is their data Americans? from which he determined it doesn't suit the application of speed flight especially if he never loaded it into a plane. or recorded any constants?

You need to question him every opportunity you get because you all know that is not a legitimate assessment . Youd trust a person that spent half a day on the subject matter?

You should ask yourself what he thinks of your intelligence if you are supposed to believe it with nothing to support it. He truly thinks the average American hobbyist is a fool. All you have to do is look at their post and threads about our election.

They think you are stupid right along with 47th

because some of us have done things like deny global warming exist! and pulling out of green energy they think were all idiots in agreement. They havem't a clugh how divided Americans are on policy. They are full of these assumptive stereotype about Americans so He thinks he can tell you anything and you'll buy it and in some cases like helifreak and crocoworld. That worked for awhile but as u can see when his pilots that read here started inquiring about things like different ball bearings they get pushed off his mailing list! And locked his thread.

He is really upset people like Mike Padron and Brenner Sharp chose me. People highly respected in their branches of RC. I don't just supply a limited group with a singular goal.

Boats , Planes, and Helis. It doesn't even matter to me but he is not for you or he wouldnt call you all Anglophiles.

For those that do not know that means we kiss the queens az..

:no_mouth:

[Clugh]

I guess he will tell you that this also will not suit a pilot that wants to fly faster even though its 12slot 10 pole configuration just like the pilots run.. It is another way to kill all that noise. Semi distributed 4 layer winding. It would allow you to run fat noodle wiring with less proximity and skin loss. Again itz not about the lowest DCR is more about the AC because those losses come at a frequency not at stall.

A 1/4 of a percent less in copper losses is not anything to get excited about in his conventional wye machine. If he saw a percent more in his hybrid then his routing was very poor. To bad he tried to manipulate your understanding to the prototype winding I showed him in 2019 and not the refined version in 2025. he always lies and manipulated your understanding this way. He truly truly lies all the time to you boys.

While he is typing gibberish I'm constantly improving my craft. The P800 6 delta coils are already secured and neat with boron nitride infused epoxy waiting for the open ended wye coils to be added.. Ill also run a HK hybrid for them.

And report those constants so they can know the truth and find a new winder in 2026 if you cant keep up with todays winding tech.



Hubert

[Clugh]

Es ist wirklich schade, dass Christian Lucas, jamaicaman, pierre_mousel und Rds Ihnen für diesen lächerlichen Beitrag nur mit einem Daumen hoch weiterhelfen können.

Bleib ruhig, sonst gibt es hier nichts zu sehen. Ihr habt beide nichts Sinnvolles zu dem Thema beizutragen. Und natürlich hat er dir erst im Dezember 2019 erzählt, wie effektiv der Wind ist. Du solltest wissen, dass der bayerische Designer seine Worte damals hier veröffentlicht hat. Er wirkt auch nicht so bipolar … auf uns.

Das erklärt auch, warum er auf Powerditto war und die Sicherheitsmaßnahmen der Website umgangen hat, um sich die Hybriddaten anzusehen. Und natürlich hat er mir unzählige persönliche E-Mails geschickt, in denen er dich als dumm bezeichnet hat. Jetzt ist er wieder dein Freund und weiß nicht, wohin er sich wenden soll. U2 sind wirklich eine Minstrel-Show.

Dein Wickelforum ist langweilig. Es ist dort nicht einmal mehr interessant genug, um es zur Kenntnis zu nehmen. Was ist denn los? Bilder von christlichen Spulen von vor 30 Jahren kursieren noch sechs Jahre lang?

Ich bin damit mehr als zufrieden und muss weder davon noch von einem konventionell gewickelten Skorpion 5050 mehr sehen. Ist es nicht ironisch, dass die Motorleiter hier versuchen, ihre Interessen vor ihren Kollegen zu verbergen, mich oder etwas, das ich tue, aber fast täglich in den Foren ihrer Kollegen erwähnen?

Das Wichtigste, wenn Sie trollen möchten, ist dieses Foto für Ihre Kollegen und eine Scope-Aufnahme, die zeigt, dass Sie und LRK oder Single Layer Scorpion BEEF keine Sinuswelle erzeugen.

Das ist für dich und Ralph Lucas. Ihr seid offiziell Teil der Crocoworld der Anhalter.

Glückwunsch. :speak_no_evil:

Genießen Sie Jurassic Park

Ich gehe ins Bett.

:yawning_face:
Hubert

[Clugh]

Efficiency as a function of slot wedge permeability The 30 mu looks promising because its so broad right? But don't be fooled itz good for the rotor and pm but it turns all the noise back on the core and you have elevated core loss. About 2 mu is sweet. Where you don't actually lose torque. 30 Mu may not fit a speed plane application if you want the most torque dense machine. A 30 mu wedge will block some of your torque producing harmonics to give you that level of attenuation of slot harmonics into the rotor and PM and you will lose some static torque output because the core loses some of its power.. just like the low pass filter you have to let the right harmonics through the slot to make good torque.

30 mu wedge is still worth looking at if you are going to actively cool the core with liquid or cryogenics.

The Magnovol, an industrial grade semi magnetic slot wedge material, pictured is 2 mu. I have the material here at camp America.

[Clugh]

See how my semi magnetic low loss carbonyl/PLA slot wedges will fit the 50 series Scorpion Americans?

He is jealous of US

That's all this nonsense is about. Ill tell you with him as a live witness.... Dr Okon is not brighter than me when it comes to electronics, computer science and manufacturing . I been passionate about it since about 4 years old. Thats 50 years plus the degrees diplomas, and certifications in all things relevant. The Dr, who was studying medicine, biology and anatomy, and the title he carries means zero to me. This is not at all his lane. I was immersed in audio and electronics technology while he was studying the human body.. He should keep it real with you all.
.
I teach him everyday anyway even though he is supposed to be smarter than me. Can you tell he's smarter about this by his post and lack of data? He's never given you 3 solid points to support any ideas he's had about any of this.

Despite all his pm's and crying about it. He cant touch the American ..... he has zero creativity and no vision. All he can see is his wye wound 10 pole scorpion knocker. He is brighter than the entire IEEE and electronics are not even his discipline.

As a hobby machinist the German hobbyist could not even tell you how to check a tail stock for proper alignment on his lathe.

Now he can go look it up....online


Layter
Hubert

[Clugh]

:point_up:

And be sure Americans and those interested to understand before he lies to you. Please understand that my wind is equivalent to this circuit in parallel. Dont let him confuse you or lie with the diagram above in post number 4116 that says a "parallel" phase connection between the outer delta and inner wye is unpreferred. Thats is not what I'm showing you. What is have is the preferred outer wye inner delta serially connected hybrid like this diagram on each stator half and the motor terminals (UVW) of each motor is paralleled together. That halves the overall circuit dc resistance and the 2 pole harmonic (low order and non zero) is attenuated by the serial interconnections between the wye and deltas on each stator half which is going to create a purer BLDC signature that takes alot of stress off the rotor and pm. The 2 pole is a sinusoid. if you remove it and boost the 5th and 7th harmonics of a 10 or 14 pole pseudo sinus BLDC some form of the purer Trap or Triangle is all that could be left. Its more torque, less torque ripple there and thus less mechanical vibration and noise there especially teamed with a six step inverter. The power factor and efficiency is going to improve. Ralph can run his mouth until he is blue like papa smurf in the face. He hasn't a Clugh what he is talking about.

The IEEE Phd's have it all figured out. Trust them. Maybe they should have explained it to you this way

YT
Hubert

[Clugh]

Low pass filtering.....APD and BL HELI32 can do it with betaflight....that old ass YGE Powercroco promotes to his friends and customers cannot

I know you dont understand a thing I am showing you. I can tell you in my own words or even post directly fundamentals of electronics and you still cannot get it. "DR OKON" .\O/



I know you dont know a thing about 16 and 32 bit DSP based motor control IC's or low pass filtering using a majority function that monitors the erpm (frequency).

:stuck_out_tongue:

I'm off to wind for the F3A and HELIFREAK boys no more time to CLOWN around. with you. You showing me you don't know nothing.


.
Good luck from the USA with more input and information about the subject matter than you can wrap your tunnel vison around apparently. Because the only thing that works according to you is a conventional and clearly outdated wye winding where 300% of the phase currents sit in the pigtails versus being dissipated through a 3 phase delta machine with higher current ampacity. You're brilliant about the subject matter for sure.

Please burn down as many of your friends 5000 dollar planes and electronics as you would like. The 5 dolla bearings are a real smooth touch. For such an aircraft. You are here everyday for all these ideas and things that "DO NOT WORK"!

LOL!

:clown:
Peace Bruder
Hubert

[Clugh]

I realize you dont know anything about electronics Dr Okon from your post..

THD is a measure of that additional signal content not present in the input signal.

When the main performance criterion is the "purity" of the original sine wave (in other words, the contribution of the original frequency with respect to its harmonics), the measurement is most commonly defined as the ratio of the RMS amplitude of a set of higher harmonic frequencies to the RMS amplitude of the first harmonic, or fundamental frequency^{1][2][5][6][7][8][9][10]}



where V_n is the RMS value of the nth harmonic voltage, and V₁ is the RMS value of the fundamental component.

For many standard signals, the above criterion may be calculated analytically in a closed form.^[1] For example, a pure square wave has THD_F equal to


The sawtooth signal possesses


For the rectangular pulse train with the duty cycle μ (called sometimes the cyclic ratio), the THD_F has the form



and logically, reaches the minimum (≈0.483) when the signal becomes symmetrical μ = 0.5, i.e. the pure square wave.^[1] Appropriate filtering of these signals may drastically reduce the resulting THD. For instance, the pure square wave filtered by the Butterworth low-pass filter of the second order (with the cutoff frequency set equal to the fundamental frequency) has THD_F of 5.3%, while the same signal filtered by the fourth-order filter has THD_F of 0.6%.^[1] However, analytic computation of the THD_F for complicated waveforms and filters often represents a difficult task, and the resulting expressions may be quite laborious to obtain. For example, the closed-form expression for the THD_F of the sawtooth wave filtered by the first-order Butterworth low-pass filter is simply THDF=π23−πcoth⁡π≈0.370=37.0%,



References:

[Clugh]

The machines with the lower total harmonic distortion, which is what you are hearing in the videos have a better power factor and almost always a better efficiency.

Die Maschine mit der geringeren Gesamtklirrfaktor, die Sie hören, hat einen besseren Leistungsfaktor und fast immer eine bessere Effizienz.

Die Maschine mit der geringeren harmonischen Verzerrung, die Sie hören, hat einen besseren Leistungsfaktor und fast immer einen höheren Wirkungsgrad. Dr. Okon ist sich nicht darüber im Klaren, dass er keine Ahnung von Elektronik hat. Wer ihm zuhört, ohne intelligente Fragen zu stellen, wird Schwierigkeiten haben, das Thema zu verstehen. Er verfügt weder über Daten noch über Videos, die seine Ideen stützen.

E-Motoren | RC-Network.de

The thread is going to fall to the bottom just like the others Ralph. It is pure nonsense....

Sie können es nicht mehr gebrauchen, da Sie in Ihrem eigenen Forum diesbezüglich ignoriert wurden, aber Sie haben jetzt schon zweimal versucht, es aufzuwickeln und stellen immer noch Fragen dazu. Wenn die Version von Dr. Gerling nicht funktioniert hat, warum sind Sie dann wieder hier, wickeln es erneut auf und fragen nach einem anderen Hybrid?

Oops caught ya again.....
.

Thanks for your time and patience,
Hubert

[Clugh]

If this is what the windings brings and you believe 1000s of Electrical Engineers over 1 retired Army Medic that winds hobby motors for his friends tell me how is it HIS application has no use for its advantages?

I can not think of single e traction application that would not benefit greatly from these things. Can You? You can see clearly the direction the PM and rotor performance is going. . If his application runs into desynchronization and Demag which it does how in the hell does he think he cant benefit from it if he has a lick of common sense about electronics? His current motor winding yields an eta of 68% at full power.

I'm sorry that is really ignorant bs to say from him. His application has no use for it....

Really?

What does dual layer parallel wye winding bring a speed plane motor that this wouldn't better and his motors are currently failing?

[Clugh]

You can see and HEAR in this video of the asymmetrically wound HKIII 4025 that when the motor gets around 60 hertz rotational frequency and 3660 rpm the same phenomena occurs. These motors and at least my 6 step inverters do not like frequencies that can be equally divided by 3

This is pretty Empirical. I dont need a PN for open forum discussion with Okon.:ghost:

[Clugh]

Americans:

If you LISTEN in the HYBRID video you will hear the whistle. I've analyzed where that occurs on a 10 pole HKIII4025 asymmetrically wound machine with the scope and a crude smartphone RTA. It's going to occur around a fundamental of around 300 - 309 hz so what you're hearing is approximately 2.7khz. The rpm associated with that fundamental frequency is where the triple harmony occurs. You can see in the video when I purposely hover around the associated rpm the AC operation is at its poorest point. The idle current amperage is highest there. You may say well that's because of the partial throttle operation which is partly true. It is higher than at WOT at almost any point, but if you lower the rpm below the point that its induces the triple frequency, being any frequencies that can be divided equally by 3, the current lowers significantly despite still being deep in partial throttle operation. 2.7 kilo is also approximately the 9th harmonic which very close to the 10th which is a multiple of the working 5th and I'm pretty sure that why the bell is ringing. I'm sure if that were prominent enough under a heavy load perhaps it might dislodge the magnets. There are ultrasonic vibrations that definitely generate enough modal energy to pull it off with a brittle adhesive. The 14 pole P600 seems to ring alot through its rpm range but in not sure if that is the transistors PWM causing that sound or something similar to this. I think its this because 8khz is obviously a much higher pitched tone than what you are hearing. Nevertheless these frequencies in the ultrasonic can kill a steel bearing through the motor shaft. Thats where the EMI shielding and non conductive balls come into play they are inherently electrically insulated. They are CERAMICS. This is also how why you'd implement something like low pass filtering it will only pass frequencies lower than its set point at a descending slope. The sharper the slope the faster and more abruptly it attenuates those unwanted frequencies that emanate those triplen harmonics . They rob power as you can see in the video. It is clear proof for me that the quieter commutating machine that vibrates less is going to be more efficient.

Vibration noise free running certainly does improve efficiency if you compare two motors with the same Kv and Rm because it lowers the idle and load currents compared to the conventional machine.

I feel very safe to say this.


BTW I could look at the RPM when I ran the 4025 because I built and coded and optical tach to watch the speed and also record and interpret the rpm as frequency but understand this frequency is different than the emf fundamental frequency

Thank you,
Hubert

[Clugh]

Du kannst dir seinen Unsinn anhören, wenn du willst.....:ghost:

• 

pierre_mousel, RdS

Thanks,
Hubert