Alternative motor windings and drive schemes

[Clugh]

This motor is of particular interest when he speaks on our use of thermally conductive material to secure the wire
I find it totally interesting that his German comrades question it but not his use of UHU construction epoxy that is a pure insulator and not thermally stable at the applicative temperatures.

Crocoworld's motor forum is a totally hilarious place to dwell if you want real answers about an electric motor. These hot hand grenades posted are the reference machines there. Look! It is fully equipped with a general construction epoxy as the securing agent that traps the heat in the wires and raises the resistance. I wonder what pilot was lucky enough to own the tinder box insulation.

:stuck_out_tongue:

Hubert

[Clugh]

So we can establish from his own accounts that demagnetization and thermal failure is an often enough occurrence for his precious engines in THEIR APPLICATION!!!

:scream:

His applicable "truth" about the star-delta hybrid winding is so evident from these previous post!!! Of Course his motors have no room for any of the improvement it brings.

Who believes it but the 8 pilots in crocoworld?

TTYL
Hubert

[Clugh]

By the 3 of Jan 2024 the Dr Okon post this.

"Since Christmas, I have had the opportunity to take a closer look at apparently weakened magnets.
In my "warehouse" there are still some magnet sets that have obviously suffered in use and also new ones of the same size. They will help me to become more familiar with the device and the results.
Should be interesting.
And I have another interesting test option for the motor checks in addition to visual inspection, 1000V and ns determination."

But he reports in 2025 to Localmatador on the same forum this is posted on that a wind that halves pm loss and generates 3.5% more torque his application has no use for...

:see_no_evil::hear_no_evil::speak_no_evil:

[Clugh]

On November 14th 2023 Dr Okon wrote:

"The next candidate is a completely overloaded HK 4225,
which did not pass the 1000V test.

It should have 530-550/V again in the end.
According to my data, a 7+6x1.32YY fits pretty well (535/V on the YGE 18° fix)

On Nov 16 2023 he wrote
"The 5025 for the transmission is now ready for testing.

The "cooked" 4225 has also been completely dismantled in the meantime.
Even the insulated discs just crumbled. The fact that the paper was completely muddy was to be expected anyway.

With new insulating discs and an "n-spec determination winding" and a brand-new bell for speed comparison, it is also waiting for its test run.

The 4225 is not yet: the n-spec is 10% higher with the grilled bell than with the new one.
So it is replaced. In my opinion, the kits from my box even have the N50EH magnets in them.

In addition, there is also Kapton in the slots, new bearings and the 6+7x1.32YY.

it will thus surpass the best of the current factory engines"

[Clugh]

On July 7 2023 Dr Okon followed it up with:

"The plan for the repair of this engine is now in place.
The defective original magnets are replaced by the 6% narrower ones of the HK 4540.
The magnetic mass decreases by 7g as a result.

The reason for this is that now only N35 SH magnets are used, but my 4540 "spare parts" still come from the times when N50EH were used.
It will be interesting to see what changes will be observed with the narrower magnets."

And then on July 8 2023

"The new magnets are in and the motor is running again.
The good old N50EH are actually a bit stronger than the parts installed in the factory 5040.
Fortunately, the n spec has even dropped minimally despite the slightly lower coverage.
In other words, since the stator side has not been changed, the torque has risen relatively high."

Finally it was followed up on the July 11 2023

"In the end, the overall package has even become a few 1/10gr lighter.
The concentricity is also top with 10S, there are almost no vibs noticeable.
Now I'm waiting for suitable batteries for a full load test."

[Clugh]

On June 15 2023 Dr Okon wrote this about another one of his speed plane motors.

Here is a rather hopeless case, at least as far as the bell is concerned.
Apparently, the motor has lost balancing mass, which led to collisions between the stator package and the magnets, at least in the interception arcs at the narrowest point of the air gap.

The stator package was a good 300°C hot at the affected point according to the discoloration.
The high-temperature GRP of the insulating discs and the slot inserts made of Kapton and also the two-layer coating of the wire have put up with this.
4 of the magnets, at least at their lower ends - there they have become completely powerless.

the error was noticed on the spot: the engine suddenly began to squeak under full load, which it had never done before.

Unfortunately, this was the now multiple world record engine with 0.1 plates and a fairly light bell.
I don't have the right spare part in stock anymore and Georges is also retired.
But I now have 2 years until the next WR attempts to come up with something."

[Clugh]

Oct 4th 2023 Dr Okon wrote about his 5050 speed plane motor.

"Today a 5050 has returned.
Fortunately, the warranty had expired.

In any case, don't be fooled by the fact that the front of the wcklung still looks quite chic!
From behind, a completely different picture can emerge.

Interestingly, the Kapton inlays survived the heat unscathed, although some wires have melted off and their missing copper can be found distributed on the outside of the stator. Can happen at 470A peak.....

You can also see that only 2 groups of a partial engine were affected.

2x Blessing in disguise:
1. The fat YGE Steller survived
it
2. The throwing winding, which was just quickly botched, has shown thatthe n spec deviates from the initial value by only 1.6% - that is, the magnets are still okay and a restoration of the object is worthwhile.

It will probably be his turn in December.....

Again to the burned-out 5050: When spinning by hand, it shows a detent, which is not there with the engine completely intact.
This in turn suggests that one or the other magnet is reduced in its strength.
I don't have the equipment to find out exactly what's going on.

The last time I had this was with a pyro - at first I thought that a magnet had come loose, which is usually the cause of a sudden snap. Unfortunately, the n spec could no longer be checked. In any case, the manufacturer, who apparently has a corresponding measuring device, showed that 4 of the 14 magnets were "dead" and all the others were also reduced in performance."

[Clugh]

If the editor in Dresden Germany had a better hold on physical science then he would understand the destructiveness of noise and vibration alone to an electrical rotating machine with a narrow air gap. He would understand that the eccentricity at the airgap would lead to eccentricity at the waveform. The standard sensorless inverter has to time itself off that BEMF waveform. As a matter of all things in electronics you want the cleanest signals you can attain and so would the inverter. The magnets residual inductance is temperature dependent so how does the amateur winder in Dresden get around it with a standard machine and wind with zero amendments to cool the PM? How does he gain even 1 point of efficiency from the last 15 years? I offer to you that he doesn't gain even a point if he changes nothing like, the bearings, the wind, or the physical topology of the machine. His goal is for the hobbyist to keep buying the old scorpion wound the old way because that the easiest thing to complete in volume and require less thinking and labor to wind it than the star - delta hybrid.

BTW Dr Gerling and the University have been in full cooperation with AUDI this entire time. The e-traction in it and the rover use hybrid multi layer hairpin winding topologies not 2 layer parallel wyes like the amateur hobbyist's scorpion powered speed planes, if that's his metric. Who uses what in industry. You can follow that metric down many lines. For example......
No one uses a 12N10P 2 layer parallel wye's in the most modern automotive Etraction or airplane propulsion in industry.

Only about 1% of the hobby motor manufactures use hand wound mono strand orthogonally wound coils so if that's Dr Okons metric why is he winding his motor this way in the first place?

The entire idea is to improve the windings over the OEM commercially off the shelf offerings so that's certainly a counter productive metric that makes absolutely zero sense!

And in fact 10 pole machines are becoming less and less in hobby outrunners!!! So metrically why is the hobbyist in Dresden Germany still winding 10 pole machines?

There can not be logic in him using such a metric then because he himself does not follow it.

:clown:

[Clugh]

The Kontronics Pyro motors I wind for F3A are contracted work for pilots that use a Brenner contra drive V4
and specific inverters with specific settings. Dr Okon is not involved!

This is a 2 layer 14 pole P600 5+4 YY. On the castle hydra Ice HV200 v2 at 10 degrees timing it is right around 910 Kv. You do not have to look toward my contracted works supplying custom wound powerplants for word class counter rotational coaxial drives . I have 3 or 4 of these and at least two 10 pole motors going out this week. I'm sure the hybrid winding would work very well on them but all by themselves they and the antiquated simpler winding they use are not part of the star delta discussion.

Dr Okon your star - delta hybrid connection photo is a test wind with very small wire so how do you have FULL load data for your application? You have to have the real wire on the stator you run in the full load application. Where is the photo of that wind and the data at > 400 amperes????


Got ya again..... ...



TTYL
Hubert

[Clugh]

Beachten Sie die Reduzierung der PM-Verluste. PM-Verluste erzeugen die Wärme der PM. Wenn sie heiß werden, geht die Flussdichte verloren, wie Duramagnetik ausführlich erklärt. Wenn die Drähte heiß werden, steigt der Widerstand dramatisch an. Diese Reduzierung der Permanentmagnet- und Rotorverluste führt zweifellos zu einem kühleren Rotor, der mehr Drehmoment liefern und die Durchsatzleistung steigern kann. Auch der Wechselrichter wird davon profitieren, da er ein definiertes Feld hat und so die richtigen Zeitpunkte für die drei Phasen erkennen kann. Darüber hinaus hat die Wicklung von Anfang an eine höhere Flussdichte und einen höheren Wicklungsfaktor. Bitten Sie den Dr., Ihnen seine „Volllastdaten“ zu zeigen, mit denen er dies getestet hat.

Wie Sie sehen, halbieren sich auch die gesamten harmonischen Verzerrungen, sodass der Motor auch einen höheren Leistungsfaktor hat. Er entwickelt mehr Wirkleistung. All diese Verlustreduzierungen führen zu einer kühler laufenden Maschine.

Thanks for your time and patience,
Hubert

[Clugh]

Localmatador,

Dr. Okons Interesse rührt daher, dass seine traditionell gewickelten Sternmotoren bei Volllast in seiner Anwendung eine Desynchronisation und eine schwere Verschlechterung der Permanentmagnete in seinen Rotoren aufweisen. Er wird Ihnen jedoch in einem offenen Forum in Deutschland erklären, dass eine Wicklung mit diesen Ergebnissen an der PM Ihre Zeit nicht wert ist. Wenn Sie sehen, wie sehr er Sie in die Irre führt, sollten Sie ihn noch einmal auf die Probe stellen. Sehen Sie sich die PM-Verlustergebnisse mit der vorgeschlagenen Hybridwicklung an. Sie werden keinen billigeren oder einfacheren Weg finden, mit einer reinen Wicklung mehr Drehmoment und Effizienz aus der Maschine herauszuholen. Mit heißen Magneten verlieren Sie Flussdichte und bei Volllast laufen seine Motoren am heißesten. Die Hybridwicklung wird dem Ganzen enorm helfen!!! Wagen Sie es ja nicht, auf ihn zu hören. Er weiß nicht, wovon er redet.

Can you see P_Magnet ? There a difference of nearly 1000 watts of loss there.:cold_face:

So I know he doesn't have any real data and is just falsifying to you guys. It's truly unfortunate his attempt to save face.

The motors are also taking out the inverters with regularity. This is the YGE 320 he swears by with it. Even YGE Engineer Marian told the man its antiquated. Okon is wasting your time.
I am the one that Contacted YGE so they could tell him so...Ralph Argued with YGE about their own drive and how it works....

[Clugh]

Lets look at the degradation of the magnetic field as a function of temperature.

But first consider the geometry used in these test results

Grade 45M Cylindrical Neo magnet
0.500″ OD x 0.500″ thick (M)
Work-piece 3/8″ thick 1018 mild steel
0.005″ gap between the magnet and work-piece


~ chart courtesy of Dura Magnetics~

we see here the attractive force of the magnet, is proportional to 2 times the degradation of the Residual Induction (Br). This is a good first order estimate and it can be used, but should be validated empirically.

• Even though a selected grade of magnet does not experience an irreversible loss (i.e. permanent demagnetization) when heated up, it will still lose net magnetic field.

• For recoverable losses due to heating, a magnet will recover when cooled back down.

• Even though a magnet did not experience an irrecoverable loss, the recoverable loss may be such that the magnet fails to deliver adequate field at an elevated operating temperature.

• The Residual Induction Temperature Coefficient α (Br) can be used to estimate the degradation of the Br for a specified temperature range.

• The resulting percent decrease in attractive force or net field is proportional to 2 times the percent degradation of the Residual Induction (Br).

• Selecting a higher heat tolerance grade may not solve the problem of reversible field losses due to heat. A higher heat tolerance will mean that the magnet will not experience an irreversible loss at higher temperatures. This does not mean the percent loss of Br per degree C will be improved to the point the magnet will be successful in the application. The solution may be in the magnetic geometry design or changing alloys.

You see the magnetic field is a descending line as a function of the magnets temperature to demag. Are you sure this wind that drastically reduces this heat in the magnets does nothing you could feel. From here it should be apparent that the Energy Density (Grade) drops considerably as the magnet is heated up. The grade 45 essentially becomes a grade 38.7. This loss is reversible and the magnet will recover, but the application may be in jeopardy as the net field of the magnet degrades.

What else is apparent is the magnet loses a full two pounds of attracting force when going from 20°C to 100°C.

:poop:

[Clugh]

The applications here in North America the hybrid will work very well Dr Okon so please don't tell the forum more untruths about what we do here.. I certainly plan to implement it. but we already surpass you with the standard drive and also have a new direct drive composite contra that makes this thing look like a real massive mess . You never have to worry about the F3A motors Ralph because they are already better than what you build. Pilots here do not have to worry about you catching up for years especially with a Wye wound scorpion outrunner with 2 bearings. It will fail in the Brenner v4 drive almost everyday.

That's no cap either The 3225 scorpion has very poor mechanical integrity as the stamped stator is the only thing that centers the far end cheap 5 dollar bearing. And it only has 2..


BTW how much does this thing in the attachment weight 1000 Grams??

Lets not forget Dr Okon when it comes to things like setting up the low pass filtering on modern day inverters there isn't a clue in Dresden.....

Meine deutschen Freunde, euer Motorleiter ist sich anscheinend der sogenannten Restinduktivität in einem Magneten nicht bewusst und weiß nicht, wie die Magneterhitzung zu einem Verlust der Flussdichte und damit auch zu einem Verlust des Feldes für die Kommutierung führt, bevor der Curie-Punkt im PM erreicht wird.

Das steht in direktem Zusammenhang mit Synchronisationsverlusten und einem geringeren Drehmoment der Maschine.
.

[Clugh]

Wash rinse repeat

You know the truth....You dont have an iota of full load data on a star- delta hybrid connected scorpion or pyro to offer a single speed pilot or the forums in 2025.

der 5050 und der yge 320 haben nie eine Durchschnittsgeschwindigkeit von 600 km/h erreicht


Danke
Hubert

[Clugh]

Du hast keine Volllastdaten. Was hat mein F3A-Motor damit zu tun, dass du ohne Daten dein Gerede redest und im Forum belügst, dass du welche hast? Wo sind denn die Volllastdaten zum Stern-Hybrid-Wind, Ralph?


Ein langsam denkendes Krokodil hat absolut keine Ahnung, was wir hier im amerikanischen Wickelprogramm tun oder anbieten. Deshalb sind Sie jeden Tag hier bei Nummer 3 oder 4 und versuchen neugierig, es herauszufinden. @ 4:54 Uhr EST

Volle Datenlast... Junge, bitte... du hast kein Molekül davon.

Sie sollten die Volllastdaten und Betriebstemperaturen während Ihrer Motorausfälle im Video veröffentlichen, in dem die gesamten Flugzeugbatterien und der Wechselrichter komplett zerstört werden. Sie haben insbesondere Rotoren entmagnetisiert und Wicklungen verbrannt. Die Temperaturen über 200 °C. Sie behaupten, der Motor könne mehr aushalten. Warum kommt es dann zu einem katastrophalen Ausfall, wenn kein mechanischer Defekt die Ursache ist? Sie sollten den Bericht mit den Volllastdaten veröffentlichen. Ich habe nämlich einen hier im Video.

[Clugh]

Also Ralph, wenn du etwas über Motoroptimierung verstündest, könntest du durchschnittlich 600 km/h fliegen. Niemand, der dir zuhört, hat das mit deinen Motor- und Antriebsvorschlägen je geschafft. Das ist Fakt. Meine F3A-Motoren sind überhaupt kein Testgelände für deinen Unsinn. Ich weiß, du bist neidisch, dass niemand deinen 3225 mit 5-Dollar-Lagern haben will. Und wer hat dir gesagt, dass niemand einen Hybrid fliegt? Du weißt wieder nicht, wovon du redest.

Sie reden nur über Nichtigkeiten, weil Sie keine Daten haben. Warum lügen Sie in Hobbyforen?

[Clugh]

Wer glaubt Dr. Okon? Wenn er in seiner Bewerbung Volllastdaten zur Stern-Dreieck-Hybridschaltung hätte, warum müsste er dann ein ganzes Forum dazu befragen? Vor allem, wenn er dort der Guru sein soll? Ralph erzählt dir nur Scheißlügen und ist ein Mythomane.

Sofern Sie nicht dumm sind, wissen Sie, dass er, wenn er über umfassende Daten zu diesem Thema verfügte, die keine Verbesserung zeigten, diese veröffentlichen und dem Crazy American und dem IEEE die Tür vor der Nase zuschlagen würde.



Danke,
Hubert

[Clugh]

Hallo Deutschland
Wenn Powercroco festgestellt hat, dass der Stern-Dreieck-Hybrid in seinen Anwendungen nichts zu suchen hat, warum sollte er dann noch daran interessiert sein, dass jemand anderes „ECHTE INDUSTRIELLE ANWENDUNGEN“ teilt? Dr. Ralph Okons sollte endlich erwachsen werden und ehrlich zu den Hobbyforen sein, denn er hat keine Volllastdaten zu einer Stern-Hybridwicklung. Niemand in der Elektrotechnik schenkt diesem Mann überhaupt Beachtung.

[Clugh]

Star and Delta Hybrid connection (SDHC)

In the section, FLUX is employed to calculate electromagnetic force of the PM machine and the vibration and acoustic noise are predicted by boundary element method, which is also the so-called LMS Virtual Lab. This software is the global leader CAE software dedicated to noise analysis. Fig. 17 presents the stator core deformation of the FSCW-PM machines with the SDHC windings configuration, as compared with the conventional one. As exhibited in Fig. 14, the SDHC windings configuration PM machine has lower amplitude of the second-order radial force harmonic than that of the conventional one; thus, it has less stator deformation in the same frequency point of 500 Hz. As seen in Fig. 17, the maximum displacement of the PM machine with the SDHC windings is about 1.4 × 10−5 mm and the conventional one is about 1.6 × 10−5 mm. In other words, high vibration will cause in the conventional machine, and will lead to loud acoustic noise. Moreover, Fig. 18 indicates the acoustic noise pressure of both FSCWPM machines. From Fig. 18, it can be seen that the circular surface of the measurement field is around 38.5 dB at 500 Hz, while the conventional PM machine is around 40.2 dB at the same frequency point of 500 Hz. That is, the PM machine with the SDHC windings configuration can weaken sound pressure amplitude.

Star and Delta Hybrid Connection of a FSCW PM Machine for Low Space Harmonics Wenxiang Zhao , Senior Member, IEEE, Junqiang Zheng, Jinghua Ji , Shengdao Zhu, and Mei Kang

[Clugh]

In the 12N10P the 1st 11th, and 13th stator MMF harmonics are eliminated. The winding factor of the 12N10P hybrid is also 96.6 % the winding factor of the wind Dr Okon uses is 93.3%. That means 3% more of the copper is being used to produce torque. At the same amp draw the hybrid winding can produce 3% more torque. It also has lower torque ripple. Unless his plane has no use for all around better motor he simple cannot admit that the American he is subscribed to is well ahead of him in understanding and apparently execution because I still haven't seen a star-delta hybrid run there or any data from it.