Alternative motor windings and drive schemes

[Clugh]

Hi,

if you don't believe it about a bifilar scorpion wind then you can test a bifilar parallel wye or delta . Pull a current clamp around one of the individual strand and measure the deviation of current from the average . That imbalance drives up the impedance ..In a bi filar delta HK5050 there are 8 parallel spaghetti strands .(>1mm in diameter) in each motor terminal. in a parallel wye HK 5050 there are 4 strands in each motor terminal

You need hall sense current clamp, a scope, signal generator, and bench DMM. its very easy to test.

The DD should also have a higher idle current as proof of what happens when you add parallel stranding.



Danke,
Hubert.

[Clugh]

Edit it was a 17 x 8E

[Clugh]

Why a parallel wound bifilar is not optimal for the speed pilot. Maybe a Doctorate in engineering can drive it home....



Type 3 means a twist of the conductor 180 on the backside each turn type 4 is a front side and type 5 is twist in the slot which takes up more space.


"Only increasing the slot filling ratio (demonstrator compared to reference stator)leads to a slight improvement only up to a frequency of approximately 220 Hz, and above this, losses due to the toothed stator and the manual insertion of the coils predominate, the selected, predominantly manual production chain leads to greater variations than the series process, from approximately 400 Hz, the DC resistance plays only a minor role and, due to the required standardization, cannot be directly evaluated using the current clamp method and can therefore only be considered in the LCR measurement, increasing twisting of the parallel wires can significantly reduce losses at highfrequencies, under the given boundary conditions, coils with 16 parallel wires twisted within the slot can no longer be reliably manufactured, coils with a twist after each slot pass in only one of the two winding heads (Type 3) reduce losses so significantly that further twisting(Type 4 and Type 5) does not achieve a significant improvement. With the chosen manufacturing strategy, coils with 14 parallel Type 3 wires."

~Simon Vogt, Dr Ing.~

When you wrap parallel conductors there is a deviation on the current of those individual wires versus the average of the bundle . The ac resistance raises and the percentage of deviation of current grows with #'s of parallel untwisted strands and diminished significantly when you add a twist per turn. You don't need Litz for good effect. Detailed measurements and data record was carried out by the Dr Ing. All the methodology and measuring devices were included in the peer of result.

[Clugh]

Guten Morgen Deutschland. F3S-Piloten, die von einer Bifilarwicklung in paralleler Sternwicklung überzeugt sind, sind keineswegs optimal. Die deutschen Doktoren der Bundeswehr können Ihnen versichern, dass ein niedriger Gleichstromwiderstand und eine maximale Füllung nicht annähernd so wichtig sind wie der Wechselstrombetrieb. Sie wurden also getäuscht. Die führenden Elektroexperten in Deutschland werden Ihnen einreden, dass der Gleichstromwiderstand nur unter etwa Hz 400 ansteigt. Wenn Sie Bifilarwicklungen verwenden, benötigen Sie mindestens eine Drehung pro Spulenwindung auf der Rückseite. Die echten Doktoren in Deutschland wissen, dass sich selbst bei einem Kilo der Wicklungswiderstand halbiert, wenn Sie parallele Litzen ohne 180-Grad-Drehung wickeln.

Das kommt von Simon Vogt, der kein Dipl.-Ing. wie Helmut, sondern Lehrstuhlinhaber an der Technischen Universität München ist
Fakultät für Maschinenwesen
Lehrstuhl für Umformtechnik und Gießereiwesen und Dr.-Ing.

[Clugh]

Hi,
I have three F3A 14 polers going out tomorrow. They are built with using the ceramic hybrid bearings treated with tungsten disulfide and the hardened internal sleeve that ties them together axially for longevity with the gearbox. The wires are thermally couples to the stator with boron nitride infused high temp epoxy. The stators are secured to the carriers with loctite 609 and a long 2mm stainless machine screw in the keyway. The main shaft is also boned with logtite 609 and the setscrew are preheated and torques with high strength thread locker. I have them on the bench and so far the KV is right around 910 the phase resistance is 14.5 milliohms.


I have the 7X10 APC mounted right now and will leave you a log on 8 s lipo and recorded constants with a little video.

This way anyone may enjoy the data in their own calculators or the Maxon Eq 1.92 to decide if it fits their perspective applications...


Thanks for your time and patience,
Hubert

[Clugh]

"Should Dr Okon explain to all of us which eddy current losses, sink effects and proximity losses, in his opinion, are not included in the no-load current measurements. Should he substantiate his assertion about which unrecorded losses are involved and why the company Maxon Motoren published an incorrect formula for calculating the maximum efficiency in their writings.

I bet Mr. Dr Okon will not give us that answer.


Nobody in the forum really knows anything about electric motors. Scorpion is now taking revenge on the fact that they only listened to a kitchen table hobbyist who had no training in electronics or electric motor development. The other manufacturers employ at least people who have received appropriate training. In the Rc forum, neither of the two gentlemen asks oh these losses are always included in the no-load current measurement, they don't just disappear or as you write with the more suitable controllers you can reduce it better or with other production measures. Also compares Dr Okon two completely different engine designs. No one ever asks that he should wind 10 turns of wire around an iron core with 10 cm^2 and then around an iron core that has 40% more iron, i.e. with 14 cm^2. Then apply current to the coils and increase it until the iron core is saturated. Now measure the magnetic lifting force that each of these electromagnets can lift. Yes, the iron core with 14 cm^2 has much greater power. And that's exactly how it is in the electric motor. The one with the thicker stator teeth saturates much later and achieves the higher rotary thrust, which means more torque, which means that the same speed means higher performance. kids stuff. Nobody in the forum asks why do the old Scorpion motors have thinner stator teeth and the newer motors have thicker stator teeth, why do they have them? After Mr. Okon should nevertheless achieve the same achievements with the thinner ones. One can easily understand these statements by Dr Okon simply forgot, they are based on utter ignorance from him who has never received any training in these fields."

who wrote that Ralph? I didn't It is a letter iI received from another manufacture.

Anyway In the attachments is the ferrite magnet version of a home brew zapping rig

Thanks
Hubert

[Clugh]

There's no damage to new magnets either. The manufacturing process in large bulk is just not perfect. The absolute best build would include matching the best magnets in the lot by weight and strength and distributing them equally around the bell. There also the option of re-zapping the already installed PM. Top slot car guys do it all the time. They build the rigs with a few 600 volt caps and a transformer. And simply recover their magnet that can be to full power. Its been discussed on the forums here and there for years. Christian has even posted the rig he put together for the outrunner on the flying giants thread. You haven't built one yet in 20 years but love to type hype.

What you need to be concerned with is not what we do here in the American winding program but your own personal limits. Stop trying to set limits for hobbyist in the art of motor winding and building to just the simple basic things you do. The only reason you speak against any of it is because you cant do it yourself and you hate to see something receive more interest than a parallel wye with bifilar wiring at the incorrect slot levels for optimized ac operation. Every single coil carries uneven current between the two strands. ones hotter than the other versus an even distribution between the two strands. Everyone at electronics knows a twisted pair rejects parasitic crosstalk between the two wires. The trans positioned hairpin uses the same exact principle as trans positioned conductors and almost all the high end EV use it so they can utilize linguini pasta copper coils .

The star - delta is two separate motors wound on a shared core connected serially to work together as one but they are trans positioned by 30 degrees. and that changes the magnetic forces placed upon the stator and the bell that dictate vibrations and harmonic boost and attenuations and thus the waveform of the machine. Your noisy bi filar grossly overloaded motor is no special beast it can't help tame. Do not sit there in crocoworld where I cant get at you and tell the guy a lie.

[Clugh]

Du kannst das melden…

Selbst in Deutschland wird der Thread ignoriert! Eine ehrliche Frage genügte, und die Lügen kamen ans Licht. Wenn Christian oder Thomas sie aufdecken würden, würden du und das gesamte Forum Daten verlangen. Das Forum ist ein Witz. Aber es schadet ihnen nur. Sie sind diejenigen, die ständig dafür bezahlen, sich verarschen zu lassen. Es ist definitiv eine verlorene Stadt mit einem verlorenen Anführer. Du hast sogar eine geheime Diskussionsgruppe auf WhatsApp eingerichtet, um die Lügen ungestört von Leuten zu verbreiten, die sie hinterfragen. Ihr alle betreibt eine massive Verschwörung gegen die deutschen Hobbyisten. Es gibt auch internationale Untertöne der Manipulation bei diesen Hinterhof-Speed-Events. Ihr habt sogar Kaffeeteller bei einem Gruppenkauf erpresst. Die meisten Lügen, die ihr über die Motoren erzählt, sind nicht einmal mehr öffentlich. Ich kann mir nur vorstellen, was für Lügen ihr auf WhatsApp verbreitet.


Die Art und Weise, wie Gerd, Klaus und Thomas Sie ohne Daten weiterschwafeln lassen, entkräftet die alberne Site.

Er hat den christlichen Thread geschlossen und Daten verlangt.



Du kannst alleine spielen gehen, weil du betrügst

Hubert

[Clugh]

Es gibt keine Entschuldigung dafür, dass Sie in Hobbyforen lügen.


Hubert

[Clugh]

Du steckst hier immer noch in der Dummheit fest. Es sollte unangenehm sein, deine eigenen Worte zu lesen, in denen du alle Motorprobleme beschreibst. Was ist die nächste Ausrede für 68 % in deiner Traummaschine? Was ist die nächste Lüge, die du in den deutschen sozialen Medien erzählst, wo sie es offensichtlich nicht besser wissen und dir deine eigenen Worte nicht an den Kopf werfen. Ich meine, deshalb postest du hier nichts. Du musst den ganzen Weg nach Deutschland rennen, an einen sicheren Ort, wo es keine Widerlegungen gibt. Es ist lustig, dass du von Verboten sprichst, wenn du bereits in einem selbstgebauten Gefängnis steckst, in dem dein Intellekt nicht wächst, sondern durch das Lob deiner Lakaien verfällt.

[Clugh]

Tun Sie mir einen Gefallen, Dr. Okon, und hören Sie auf, in Hobbyforen zu lügen. Sie haben keine Volllastdaten zum Hybrid im Vergleich zu dem, was Sie wickeln. Wenn Sie welche hätten, würden Sie sie aufzeichnen. Werden Sie erwachsen, Dr. Okon. Der Motor in Ihrer Anwendung brennt.

Ich sehe, dass du jetzt liest

Ihre Hybriddiskussion ist beendet, es sei denn, ich bin Ihre Fernbedienung.



Danke
Hubert

[Clugh]

Was Sie also bekommen, ist ein Verschwinden, keine Erklärung und irgendein nordischer Mist in Ihrem Avatar?...


How are you making any real torque when the motor magnets are well exceeding 200C which is the working temp for an N50EH. Its funny because a HKIII5040 is wound with 2 strands of 1.4mm wire in a 3+4 YY
The idle current of 3.10 amperes @ 1o volts but it runs at nearly 70 volts where the pasta conductor proximity monster is probably around 9 to 12 amperes at least


The Kv is 530 and the resistance is 6 milliohm. The max current for the motor is only 2oo amperes at 16s lipo. The max power delivery is only 14.8kW for 2 seconds....

If you examine your logs then Its grossly overloaded in your application of a 600 km/h speed plane from the start. How do you figure it doesn't need any help and to burn the enamel off takes 240C with the wire scorpion claims to use. It takes well over 200C to kill an EH grade magnet Dr Okon...



You skipped class today.... because scorpion power systems has a dyno and has already rated the 5040 in 1.4 bifilar YY at 11.8kW continuous....u need at least twice that to really see the 20kW you claim under 100C

You better try a maxon gearbox from US Bruder.

[Clugh]

Running the motors in dual 3 phase certainly delivers more through put but it also attenuates noise and also cools the rotor and magnets. You can optimize it further to reduce common mode voltages by amending the transistor firings.in the truth table. You can also cascade the inverter bridges for sub harmonic elimination. (S.H. E.).

In your current form factor of a 5050 to get more out of the wire you have to leave a dual layer wye. You can get so much more out of the pasta windings if you wind 3 to 4 layers. or amend to the hybrid or single layers with slot wedges or the right stator geometry.

[Clugh]

Dr... any capable person if they really want to can tell you at those amperages and frequencies what The N50 loses. Youre not really hiding anything from capable people that really want to know. about the repeated rotor failures. We already know for permanent damage to be done the magnets saw in excess of 180 degrees centigrade. You are not fooling any deductive thinkers with a brain at electronics

You know the MAGNETS grading comes with frequency driven hysteresis and amperage saturation loss charts for years........ right?



Why are you hiding this morning and where's that " full load data" you claim you have on the star-delta 12N10P winding now? You're late for class buddy ... and you do know that those temperatures in the magnets will certainly start to give the inverter commutative timing issues long before unrecoverable damage to the pm occurs right.??? And so when you make a decision to run the YGE with all safeties disabled including thermal, you and the motor are the reason for the inverters failure.

Is 68% real eta YOU report at full load not at the ends of itz ropes anyway? I'm just Curious Dr Okon where the hell do you think that 32% of loss goes?

Lets be real about your application guy... . 7000 watts is alot to dissipate for a handheld motor

You telling me you see all this empirical thermal damage not caused by locked rotors or failed bearings and you just rewind the same thing and give it back with no more power handling than it had previously?

To really do what they want to do which is exceed 600 Km/h consistently from the logs that direct drive motor needs to be able deliver 400 amperes continuously ALL DAY under 100 degrees centigrade and peak around 692 amperes.

You can achieve driving it in dual 3 phase. You need at least a 200 ampere continuous inverter on each stator half.

Danke
Hubert

[Clugh]

Its not even close Dr .

A YGE 320 can drive 16 Khz max pwm the F4 Atmel processors can drive 128 Khz. It has much more ability to stay in sync than the turnigy brained yung generation 320

you will figure it out in about 6 more years.

[Clugh]

Crocoworld never questioned THIS high quality encapsulation from you Dr Okon???? There's nothing for them or you to really say about what we do here. You recommend the antiquated YGE 320 which unlike new drone inverters it does not have demag compensation. Your inverter choice is old and out of date. If the motor didnt short WHY DID IT BURN UP DOC?

Look at the BLheli 32 programming suite and then look at your 320's and all it lacks in terms of modern day inverter capability iT also has a very slow processor compared to a 32 bit Atmel Based drone inverters made for fast 10 and 14 pole outrunners

[Clugh]

This motor is of particular interest when he speaks on our use of thermally conductive material to secure the wire
I find it totally interesting that his German comrades question it but not his use of UHU construction epoxy that is a pure insulator and not thermally stable at the applicative temperatures.

Crocoworld's motor forum is a totally hilarious place to dwell if you want real answers about an electric motor. These hot hand grenades posted are the reference machines there. Look! It is fully equipped with a general construction epoxy as the securing agent that traps the heat in the wires and raises the resistance. I wonder what pilot was lucky enough to own the tinder box insulation.

Hubert

[Clugh]

So we can establish from his own accounts that demagnetization and thermal failure is an often enough occurrence for his precious engines in THEIR APPLICATION!!!



His applicable "truth" about the star-delta hybrid winding is so evident from these previous post!!! Of Course his motors have no room for any of the improvement it brings.

Who believes it but the 8 pilots in crocoworld?

TTYL
Hubert

[Clugh]

By the 3 of Jan 2024 the Dr Okon post this.

"Since Christmas, I have had the opportunity to take a closer look at apparently weakened magnets.
In my "warehouse" there are still some magnet sets that have obviously suffered in use and also new ones of the same size. They will help me to become more familiar with the device and the results.
Should be interesting.
And I have another interesting test option for the motor checks in addition to visual inspection, 1000V and ns determination."

But he reports in 2025 to Localmatador on the same forum this is posted on that a wind that halves pm loss and generates 3.5% more torque his application has no use for...

[Clugh]

On November 14th 2023 Dr Okon wrote:

"The next candidate is a completely overloaded HK 4225,
which did not pass the 1000V test.

It should have 530-550/V again in the end.
According to my data, a 7+6x1.32YY fits pretty well (535/V on the YGE 18° fix)

On Nov 16 2023 he wrote
"The 5025 for the transmission is now ready for testing.

The "cooked" 4225 has also been completely dismantled in the meantime.
Even the insulated discs just crumbled. The fact that the paper was completely muddy was to be expected anyway.

With new insulating discs and an "n-spec determination winding" and a brand-new bell for speed comparison, it is also waiting for its test run.

The 4225 is not yet: the n-spec is 10% higher with the grilled bell than with the new one.
So it is replaced. In my opinion, the kits from my box even have the N50EH magnets in them.

In addition, there is also Kapton in the slots, new bearings and the 6+7x1.32YY.

it will thus surpass the best of the current factory engines"