Alternative motor windings and drive schemes

[Clugh]

Halo Ralph!

Lokalmatador



Danke,
Hubert

[Clugh]

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Thanks for your time and patience,
Hubert

[Clugh]

Tja, da hast du es, Ralph. Sie haben deinen Hybrid-Thread einfach in Ruhe gelassen und diskutieren lieber über den kleinen Tenshock, weil er Daten enthält und sie tatsächlich darüber diskutieren können, was für ihre Anwendung geeignet ist und was nicht. Der Bastler braucht dafür Daten. Wenn du ihm Daten gibst, wird der Mystic ausgelöscht. Wie der LMT41 und der Knocker fällt er zu Boden. Du erwartest, dass ich dir etwas zeige? Ich sehe, du warst hier um 7:21 EST in den USA. 👀

Danke,
Hubert

[Clugh]

Where is the hybrid data Dr Okon?

I see you are here looking for some.
In the attachment is my 10 pole conventional 5+5 parallel wye P600 F3A winding before the boron nitride "smearing"....

Du hast dem Bastler in Deutschland gesagt, dass Hybridwicklungen in Speedplane-Motoren nichts zu suchen haben, was überhaupt nicht stimmt. Wo sind die Daten, Ralph? Und was ist dann dein anhaltendes Interesse daran?

TTYL
Hubert

[Clugh]

To be real I think a true sinus inverter would need to be larger. These inverters we use are a class D DIGITAL device. For true sonic clarity sinus operation is critically preferred for itz sound/signal quality. Nothing would beat pure class A for signal quality In my opinion. It is more complicated to build and a lot of people trained in electronics today are not trained to deal with pure analog equipment. They are trained to deal with microprocessor based digital devices.

Analog would be like vacuum tube amplifiers and big back TV's etc. What young person you know is trained in 2025 to work on a big back TV.?

Basically the sinus inverter you are presented in hobby is still a MCU based digital device faking the sinus anyway. and it struggles at high speed or pole count unless you have a dedicated fast processing MCU and the complimentary hardware to fake it.

With six step it only process 6 step. With brushless DC motor Itz quite simple the truth table...

[Clugh]

As an example The Chelyabinsk meteor produced a sound estimated at 180 dB and caused widespread damage and injuries. These natural cosmic events produce some of the loudest sounds generated on Earth

171 Db is very loud bruder.. i can take you to the vehicle that does it, its in Raleigh If Jay still has it and he is still with us. I talked to Jay about 3 years ago. maybe.

[Clugh]

So you see squawkers he does no come equipped with data so lets move on with the F3A motors. I have 2 of the 14 poles wound. After testing the 4 + 4 the Kv was a little high 1017 for the dual layer and 980 for the single layer 8 turn.so we wound a 4+5 traditional parallel wye. Im going to let you hear it. You pick up the electrical noise right away. As I understand people had problems with the 14 poles but what I wound is definitely more fill than the factory winds. they should be a little cleaner because they are originally delta machines. From here with a D3 inverter id want the single layer but i cant send them that in middle of season. Im going to prepare some single layers for f3A but I want slot wedges to to raise the winding factor and protect the rotor and pm from slot harmonics and ultrasonic vibration..

I have even thought about finding a way to deaden the stator. Like Dynamat my boys. That will help thwart the core ringing. anyone that knows a little about car stereo knows I am not making this up. I was heavy into through high school and college. Im MECP certified in 12 volts and have been for about what 38 year. I worked with people like Hugh Cobb (Factory Rockford Fosgate sponsored Competitor) from Reidsville NC and Jay Lovelace at Creative Acoustics in Raleigh NC. They both won the IASCA worlds several times..

Jay had 16 cerwin vega stroker 15"s in a chevy astro van. You can NOT sit in the car the SPL will not allow you to hardly breathe YOU def lose all your hearing in flash you're talking 171 db was the world record its prolly alot more now.

To deaden the vehicle he had about 6 inches of concrete poured across the floor of the van . The windshield was braced with an I beam and was about 6 inches thick of LEXAN.

[Clugh]

Since then 12 views have looked for that data Ralph Okon.. If you do not leave motor constants the hobbyist can assume it works so well compared to what you normally wind you don't want to show it because you know I'm going to jump all over that.

If you cant leave data with the asinine editorials I will not help you or show you much more of the empirical . If you don't leave or even record data you are certainly not a go to authority on the subject matter.

If you are so intelligent it should not be difficult to explain to you the value of real and frank technical conversation about the subject matter. It is hard for me to take you seriously because anyone with common sense knows you leave data if you want to speak on something and be believed..

After 514 views not one there has responded to your inquiry. That should be evidence enough. You have at least two threads on the GSM titled wye - delta hybrids and not one has a wound motor running with data.

That's a real problem Dr.


Hubert

[Clugh]

U need to leave some real data Cap. 502 views and not one word...in the hybrid thread. What do you expect them to say and you haven't posted any data? They dont know anything about the hybrid Ralph. You do not have anything meaningful posted sir. You say you collected data. Where is it? It's pretty dead there otherwise. The entire gsm is waiting on you to leave data...

Where are the motor constants Ralph.

[Clugh]

You can see here a scorpion HK5020 single layer wye machine is not going to produce a sinus waveform. As you add winding layers interspersed you can create a more sinus wave form and of course go the other way and produce more trapezoidal or triangular wave form. Ideally you want to match it to the drive commutation style for the least amount of torque ripple. If you have a BLDC or 6 step drive it is intuitive to use a winding that moves you towards that goal in the motors generated Bemf production.

[Clugh]

Don't be confused Dr! This is the opposite end of the spectrum with BLAC commutation and a sinus machine. I think is that that your application has no use for because most of the action occurs at wide open throttle. Its BLDC there with most drives so what I offer you is this kind of thing is for better dynamic BLAC performance in an EV like e bikes. In our case we don't want to attenuate the 5th or 7th in the BLDC 10 or 14 pole machine. So the feed forward concept is not for you. unless you want to highlight or make better the pseudo sinus character with multi-layer 10 and 14 pole machines in 2,3, or 4 layers or maybe more. A conventional wye dual layer 10 pole motor has a more sinus character than the single layer delta which exhibits more BLDC character.

An adventurous one test it all to find out what actually works best for their application. You always look for improvement anywhere you can have it but this is my theory based on what I have been exposed too on what best for the 10 and 14 pole machine with six step drives at WOT.

Be mindful that those higher multi layers machines for clean sinus operation have slightly lower winding factors than the conventional wye wound machine. But because its so clean maybe its still a win with SVC FOC which always commutes 90 degrees perpendicular to the rotor.
Talega can do it and the low pass filtering as it is a SVC DSP based Motor control IC.

See the "Q" axis???
Theoretically its MTPA there. Thats on the inverter and commutation side of things. if you truly want to run SINUS you need a fully dedicated sinus drive and then you wind for sure those higher layer numbers. But one could still finalize it to an inner delta.

YGE nor Castle are these things and at WOT the castle runs cooler and already has significantly lower on resistance than the Yung generation electronic.

Happy harmonics!
Hubert

[Clugh]

Cancellation of selected stator harmonics in BLDC by using an adaptive feedforward controller

Author links open overlay panelNezar Abou Qamar, Constantine J. Hatziadoniu

Highlights

• •
  In a BLDC non-sinusoidal EMF introduces current harmonics in the stator.
• •
  An adaptive feedforward controller (AFC) is proposed for the cancellation of the low order harmonics from the stator currents.
• •
  The AFC is integrated with a field-oriented controller (FOC) that regulates the speed.
• •
  A design process for selecting AFC parameters to provide a sufficient phase margin under wide range of motor speeds is introduced.
• •
  The AFC effectiveness is demonstrated in an experimental setup where the 5th and 7th stator current harmonic where significantly attenuated.

Zusammenfassung
Diese Arbeit stellt einen adaptiven Feedforward-Regler (AFC) zur Unterdrückung ausgewählter niederwertiger Harmonischer aus den Statorströmen eines bürstenlosen Gleichstrommotors (BLDC) mit nicht-sinusförmiger Flussverteilung vor. Bei richtiger Abstimmung kann der AFC ausgewählte Harmonische der Motor-Gegen-EMK verfolgen und die Statorspannung gegenmodulieren, um die induzierten Oberschwingungsströme zu kompensieren. Der vorgeschlagene AFC ist mit einem feldorientierten Regler (FOC) kombiniert, der die Motordrehzahl regelt, um die Statorspannungen bei den ausgewählten Oberschwingungsfrequenzen weiter zu modulieren. Diese Arbeit präsentiert experimentelle Ergebnisse, bei denen der AFC zur Unterdrückung der 5. und 7. Harmonischen entwickelt wurde. Die erzielten Ergebnisse bestätigen die Funktionalität des vorgeschlagenen Reglers und zeigen seine Wirksamkeit bei der signifikanten Verbesserung der Statorstromwellenform.

APD PRO HV is feed forward capable....

[Clugh]

Ich habe dich zum Wickeln gedrängt, und du hast es getestet, und es lief. Mach jetzt die Parallelversion mit echtem Draht und teste sie richtig. Ich muss die Motoren für F3A fertigstellen. Die Zeit ist begrenzt.

[Clugh]

Du denkst wahrscheinlich, ich erzähle ständig Witze. Nein, Mann, ich meine es ernst. Sebastian hat noch nie etwas mit einem Hybrid-Außenrotor gemacht wie du. Die waren nicht ehrlich zu dir. Er hat nie etwas gewickelt und laufen lassen, natürlich hätte er es gepostet. Du solltest in deinem Forum nach seinen früheren Motorwicklungen suchen, um einen Hinweis darauf zu bekommen, was er gemacht hat. Tippen ist es. Es ist schwer für dich und Thomas, da ihr ständig im Wettbewerb steht. Ich bin sicher, er prüft das. Gib ihm Zeit. Er ist ziemlich negativ gegenüber allem, außer den billigen Witzbolden, für die er 300 Euro verlangt, also würde ich nicht viel Positives oder Hilfreiches erwarten. Er ist ein ziemlich negativer Typ.

alles ist Müll, außer seinen Witzbolden

[Clugh]

Ich bin sehr beschäftigt und arbeite in 12-Stunden-Schichten mit der Reparatur und Installation von Robotern und Werkzeugen für die Verarbeitung von SiC-Wafern. Wenn du also ernsthafte Fragen hast und echtes Feedback willst, musst du deine Aussagen belegen und Daten liefern. Ich habe keine Zeit für Spielchen. Dafür ist CL da. Ohne Daten gibt es nichts zu besprechen. Wenn du sie nicht lieferst, liegt das daran, dass die Engine so gut funktioniert. Ich weiß genau, was sie tut. So wie du es machst, werden deine Freunde nur zu Crash-Dummies.

Hör auf zu campen und nimm dir ein paar Tage Zeit, um Daten zu sammeln. Dann reden wir. Deine Freunde warten auf dich. Ich bin nicht wie Chris, der zu Hause sitzt und nichts übrig hat außer Zeit, über Unsinn zu streiten oder meine blöde Engine zu verkaufen.


TTYL
Hubert

[Clugh]

Hallo, ich hoffe, du bringst heute ein paar Daten mit in den Unterricht, Ralph. Du musst welche liefern, um in Amerika oder zu Hause ernst genommen zu werden.

Wir werden täglich mit Dutzenden von Argumenten konfrontiert, die angeblich faktisch sind. Jeden Tag müssen wir diese Aussagen bewerten und entscheiden, was wir davon halten – nicht nur, ob wir ihnen zustimmen oder nicht, sondern auch, ob wir sie für wahr halten. Halte beim Lesen einen Moment inne und überlege, wie viele solcher Botschaften und Aussagen du heute gehört hast und wie du sie empfunden hast.

Um ein überzeugendes Argument zu formulieren, muss der Autor nicht nur von einer fundierten Annahme ausgehen, sondern auch Beweise und Analysen liefern, die seine Schlussfolgerung stützen.

Fünf gängige Werkzeuge effektiver Argumentation:
Expertenmeinungen
Statistiken
Fakten
Beispiele
Logik

Du hast keines dieser Werkzeuge zu diesem Thema verwendet. Du hast dem Forum lediglich deine Meinung und eine Tatsache präsentiert. „Es läuft sehr ruhig.“ Meinungen, die über diese eine Tatsache hinausgehen, gelten nicht als Expertenmeinung, da du noch nie Windeln gewechselt hast. Wenn Sie Ihren Beitrag lesen, werden Sie feststellen, dass er nicht nur dem vorherigen widerspricht, sondern auch unbegründet ist. Wenn es hörbar leiser ist als die Stern- oder Dreieckwicklung, ist das an sich schon eine offensichtliche Verbesserung. Ich habe Ihnen anhand eines Videobeispiels gezeigt, dass Lärm die Leerlaufströme und -verluste erhöht.

[Clugh]

The pyro 800 hybrid already had the delta coils secured with the boron nitride infused since I have the room with the securely out the way I'm going to mixed gauges. For the wye coils I plan to use 15 AWG. Both machines are ready for the open wye coils to be wrapped.
My rotor bell is super clean and the PM is nice with uniform spacing around the can..

Thanks for you time and patience.

TTYL
Hubert

[Clugh]

Since the HK 5020 is already laced with 9 turns of 13 AWG 1.828mm. I'll wind a 5TY+ 9TΔ. I'm pretty sure I can fit it or get close. A parallel version can get good fill because it is a single coil winding on all 12 teeth before you terminate it. See all 12 slot wedges sticking to the pm. I wont install them at first so I can look at just the hybrid winding effects.


Thank you for your time and patience.
Huber

[Clugh]

From left to right if you look at the 2nd and 4th attachments in the previous post you can see all the slot noise that unwantedly effects flux density. The slot wedges reduce the noise as the permeability of the wedges increase.. They also increase the peak flux density when selected correctly. You can observe that data in the 3rd attachment above..

[Clugh]

The theory.

4 Semi-magnetic slot wedges

The use of fractional conductor windings can modify (fine tune) the winding factors of the synchronous machine. These winding factors feed-forward to the air-gap flux density wave via the armature reaction MMF wave. Altering the winding factors has no effect on the stator slot permeances that have a large influence on the resulting air-gap flux density wave. The stators of large generators are usually designed with open slots and closed with a high temperature plastic or glass-fibre slot wedge to assist with keeping the coils in place. Open slots reduce the output voltage quality of generators and also degree the performance of motors – pole face losses increase significantly due to the increased air-gap harmonic content [6]. Fig. 5 shows the wedge placement in a parallel tooth synchronous machine.

There are commercially available semi-magnetic slot wedges [5]. These wedges have >1 relative permeability in the range 2 ≤ μ_r ≤ 10 and have been shown in single-tooth wound synchronous reluctance motors to reduce the harmonic content in the air gap by modulating the flux density wave via the permeances. It is possible that combination of reduction in pole shoe surface iron losses, reduced voltage THD, reduced field current, and improved efficiency energy conversion efficiency can be achieved by adopting correctly designed semi-magnetic slot wedges





Finite element studies can be used to determine the radial component of the air-gap flux density. The slot wedges shown in Fig. 5 have their relative permeability modified accordingly; 1 (normal wedge) ≤ μ_r  ≤ 100 (high permeability wedge). Transient motion analysis is also performed to determine the eddy-current losses in the pole face of the salient rotor poles. Fig. 6 shows the resultant radial air-gap magnetic flux density plots across a single rotor pole pitch in machine with different wedges, Fig. 7 shows the radial flux density harmonic decomposition, Fig. 8 the residual magnetic flux density over a rotor pole pitch and Fig. 9 the eddy-current distribution over half a rotor pole pitch.

Finite element studies can be used to determine the radial component of the air-gap flux density. The slot wedges shown in Fig. 5 have their relative permeability modified accordingly; 1 (normal wedge) ≤ μ_r  ≤ 100 (high permeability wedge). Transient motion analysis is also performed to determine the eddy-current losses in the pole face of the salient rotor poles. Fig. 6 shows the resultant radial air-gap magnetic flux density plots across a single rotor pole pitch in machine with different wedges, Fig. 7 shows the radial flux density harmonic decomposition, Fig. 8 the residual magnetic flux density over a rotor pole pitch and Fig. 9 the eddy-current distribution over half a rotor pole pitch.

As is clearly evident from Fig. 6, the stator slotting permeance causes significant variation of the air-gap flux density over the rotor pole face.

This leads to harmonic losses in the rotor pole surface and increased armature voltage harmonics, both of which are undesirable. By introducing the semi-magnetic wedges (here we must note that the wedge permeability is much less than the stator lamination steel), there are two observations;

• (i) Increased fundamental flux
• (ii) Reduction in the high frequency slotting harmonics

The increase in the fundamental flux is attributed to the shortening of the effective air gap, the Carter factor for the stator is reduced, and hence the effective air gap is smaller. The Carter factor is usually computed via conformal mapping assuming that the steel has infinite permeability and the stator slot opening has a relative permeability of one, this effectively enlarges the air gap – this effect is reduced with semi-magnetic slot wedges.

As a consequence, the fundamental voltage capability for the machine will increase slightly, or the required field current for rated air-gap flux will reduce along with the associated loss and temperature rise. Second, due to the reduction of the discontinuity of permeability in the slot opening, the stator slotting permeance function becomes less pronounced, reducing the high-frequency slotting visible in the air-gap flux density waveform for a machine with conventional wedges

Use of fractional-conductor windings and semi-magnetic slot wedges in synchronous machines

Christopher Donaghy-Spargo, Anthony Spargo
First published: 14 May 2019

https://doi.org/10.1049/joe.2018.8205
Citations: 3

You can always cut the overbearing CL off Docta...and try to make new friends that will not constantly try to force you to build a 41** LMT



YT,
Hubert