New FMS/Eflite Su-30 coming soon

[Phantom]

Jetdoc,

"In the past I've been guilty of over-engineering and over-complicating planes in order to mask deficiencies in my own skills when improving my skills and changing my techniques were really the answer to the problem. The key to rectifying a problem is to first recognize the problem."

Truer words have not been spoken, amen.

[Hugh Wiedman]

After reading this entire thread I've noticed that it has changed from an Eflite Su-30 thread into more of an AR636 programming thread with a common goal in mind; to increase takeoff and landing performance. I fly from a grass field at 800' ASL and have no trouble flying any of the newer edf's from my field. I did have an early FW F-86 That would clog with grass clippings before it ever got to flying speed. Flying stabs and the ability to get the CG far enough aft for proper rotation would probably have helped, but que sera, sera. I never use flaps on takeoff with my FW Me-262, FW A-4, or FW MiG-21. I fly exclusively with HRB 5000 50C with no issue. I find that a CG toward the aft limit and full up elevator until rotation on takeoff and proper airspeed/alpha on approach solves most of the issues inherent to grass ops, Delta and semi-delta models such as the A-4 and MiG-21 really taught me those lessons well and greatly improved my takeoff and landing techniques. I have a BNF Eflite Su-30 on backorder and plan to fly it pretty much stock with HRB 6000 50C's full aft in the battery compartment. I will reprogram stick priority from 160% to 100% in order to take advantage of AS3X over full stick movement. At 160% AS3X is only actually stabilizing up to the first 20% of stick movement (or so) from center with none thereafter. Hard to visualize until seen on a graph. I've watched all the grass ops videos and have come to the conclusion that the Su-30 seems to perform better when flown more like a delta than a conventional platform. I'll ditch the grasscatcher on the nose gear, program max stabilator throws and I have no doubt she'll fly as good as she looks. In the past I've been guilty of over-engineering and over-complicating planes in order to mask deficiencies in my own skills when improving my skills and changing my techniques were really the answer to the problem. The key to rectifying a problem is to first recognize the problem.

jetdoc sound thinking and I'm sure you should have no problem taking off of grass with an 800' runway, assuming that the grass is fairly well trimmed. And I'm not sure it will be necessary to remove the grass catcher completely, I trimmed the back lower portion by about 5 mm and have no problem with it on our grass field, so that option is up to you. I replaced the 636 with the older 7350 7 channel AS3X only to get the option of flaperons and the airbrake. It rotates with minimal take-off flaps in 150' with no winds. In 10-15 mph head wind conditions, take-off flaps are definitely not needed. I did program the rate gains consistent with HH's original program and reduced the priority to 140, but I also did not include any heading gain or safe that they had because I am not a big fan of heading gain in anything other than 3D conditions. The recommended CG (if I remember correctly) is between 115-150 mm and for me, I like it better around the 140 range, which is with the battery almost as far aft as possible.

You should definitely enjoy flying this bird considering your experience with delta and semi-delta wing models. The SU-30 is big, flies heavy and is no speed demon, but it's presence in the air and in high alpha is impressive. The roll rate, even with greater than recommended high rates is very tame, certainly nothing like the F-16 or F-18, but that's to be expected. I'm sure you will not be disappointed.

[jetdoc]

Definitely looking forward to it! I'll try just trimming the FOD deflector as you suggested. I like the looks of it. One of the characteristics that drew me to the Su-30 was its scale-like performance. The Su-27/30 series of fighters has been my favorite since its inception. I love the menacingly cobra-like look of it as well as the sheer size and power. A friend also told me to expect it to fly a little heavy although locked-in. He says it carries energy well, penetrates wind easily and grooves nicely on approach. He flies from grass similar to what I'll fly from and achieves rotation in about 200' to 250' with full up stabilator deflection, no wind and no flaperons. As with all edf's on grass the key seems to be achieving rotation. Once the nose wheel leaves the grass resistance is reduced and at that point, in my experience anyway, the angle of attack and airspeed are sufficient for takeoff. I'll try it stock first. If I experience problems I'll deal with them then. Thanks so much for your suggestions. I really appreciate the opportunity to learn from those who have actually flown the Su-30.

[Hugh Wiedman]

Definitely looking forward to it! I'll try just trimming the FOD deflector as you suggested. I like the looks of it. One of the characteristics that drew me to the Su-30 was its scale-like performance. The Su-27/30 series of fighters has been my favorite since its inception. I love the menacingly cobra-like look of it as well as the sheer size and power. A friend also told me to expect it to fly a little heavy although locked-in. He says it carries energy well, penetrates wind easily and grooves nicely on approach. He flies from grass similar to what I'll fly from and achieves rotation in about 200' to 250' with full up stabilator deflection, no wind and no flaperons. As with all edf's on grass the key seems to be achieving rotation. Once the nose wheel leaves the grass resistance is reduced and at that point, in my experience anyway, the angle of attack and airspeed are sufficient for takeoff. I'll try it stock first. If I experience problems I'll deal with them then. Thanks so much for your suggestions. I really appreciate the opportunity to learn from those who have actually flown the Su-30.

jetdoc I think you'll love flying, and landing this bird. The only difference in what you suggested and the way I fly it is the technique you will use in take-off, but this is just a personal preference. Everyone has their own way of flying and my way is certainly no better than someone else's (heck, I'm the last person to give advice on RC flying) so don't take this the wrong way. I like to take-off with the SU-30 (and all my EDF's and prop warbirds) by slowly accelerating during the take-off run and leaving the elevator in the neutral position for at least the last 50' of full throttle, then when it starts getting "loose" from the ground, I will ease in up elevator so it lifts off with only a 10 degree up angle, raise the gear immediately, and then let it climb at a 20 degree angle to the first downwind leg turn. For me, this looks smooth and controlled and somewhat "scale like". Our club has some 400 members and the majority fly huge turbine jets or extremely large scale prop warbirds and from watching and talking with them, that's their preferred take-off technique and they've been good enough to work with me on this. There are only a few of us "small" foam electric pilots and some of them take-off like they've been stung in the butt by a bee and it just looks funny to me. This also prevents rotation too soon which in some of my planes can lead to a wing stall, so I like to take advantage of a long runway and ensure that I have actually achieved V1 before I rotate. But as I said, this is just personal preference.

[jetdoc]

Good advice, however, the only edf I have that will respond to that type of "massaging" on takeoff is my FW Me-262. It has a great power/weight ratio and will build up speed regardless of elevator position. In fact, too much up elevator on takeoff will result in it popping up (due mostly to aft CG and underslung engines causing pendulum effect) and rolling left. It needs speed and a light hand on elevator for a scale takeoff. My MiG-21 and A-4 are quite different animals. They won't build sufficient speed and overcome the drag of the grass without holding full up elevator once proper track is established and full power applied. After that, the nose generally rises after 150' or so then the elevator can be somewhat relaxed until the plane is airborne around 200'. I prefer a scale climbout raising the gear immediately thereafter, followed by a steady, shallow climbout building airspeed as she climbs. Our grass is thick Bermuda but is kept well-cut. I can generally see the top half of the nosewheel on my planes from the pilot stations at the fence. Turbines aren't allowed at our field due to commercial and residential encroachment near our field. The good thing is that our field is a closed landfill that we lease from the county. The only lease requirement is that we cut the grass and keep the property neat. We've been at our location since the mid '80's.

[Rcfiddy1]

Finally got to maiden the big girl this weekend. Everything went well and landed with ease. Maiden flight needed a bunch of down elevator and a click on right aileron. My only complaint is the factory throws are too low for me. She is not a speed demon by any means but she does carry the speed well. I need to get more throw in the ailerons and buy a bigger battery as my 5200mah 50c doesn’t cut it.

[jetdoc]

I maidened my Su-30 today. As with most, mine took quite a few clicks of down stabilator and one click of left aileron. Flew it on an iX12, HRB 6s 6000 50c full aft, set up per the manual except that I changed the AS3X stick priority settings to 100% across the board allowing stabilization through the full range of stick travel, not just 20 degrees to either side of center. Flew like it was on rails. Awesome presence in the air. Very solid vertical performance as well. Not quite unlimited, but much better than my Freewing 80mm birds. Airborne from grass in about 200 ft with the FOD deflector installed (although trimmed). NO FLAPS REQUIRED. Rock solid approach, smooth landing with 100 ft rollout. No complaints. She's definitely a keeper! One caveat; I replaced the Eflite 1850kV fan/innrunners (28mm) with FMS 1900kV fan/inrunners (30mm) that I ordered from RC Castle in Hong Kong. The extra power seems to have made flaps unnecessary operating from grass. Oh, and did I mention, 4 minute flights with 3.75/cell left in the tank! Flew three times with near identical results. To say that I'm pleased would be an understatement!

[Elbee]

jetdoc, Great looking airframe, Doc. Congrats on the successful check flight. Best, LB

[jetdoc]

Thanks. Three amazing flights today. It's really a win-win when your favorite airframe performs so well.

[Wild Man]

I have been waiting for this one for a few months. The SU-30 that I ordered Monday was delivered today at 3:00 pm and I now have it ready to fly Only took just over two hours to assemble program and adjust. Now hopefully on Fathers day we will have a calm day to test fly this Twin 70 mm EDF, I can't wait. I also have my new B-24 Liberator, F-35 ready A-10. and F-4 ready for some more flying.

[jetdoc]

Nice, Wild Man! Happy Father's Day! You'll love the Sukhoi. Flew my 8th and 9th flights yesterday. Added the RCGeek 30mm Miniburner kit (30mm since mine has the FMS 1900kV inrunners) last week and tried them out yesterday. Cool factor went up at least 20 points! Very visible in bright sunlight. The flicker when they "light off" is amazing. I swear it feels like it's faster as well. BTW, my car goes faster after I wash it too! Can't fly today. Having knee surgery Wednesday and I'm in isolation until then. All that anti-Covid protocol. Hope all goes well for you with your maiden today. Let us know how it goes. Good luck!

[jetdoc]

jetdoc sound thinking and I'm sure you should have no problem taking off of grass with an 800' runway, assuming that the grass is fairly well trimmed. And I'm not sure it will be necessary to remove the grass catcher completely, I trimmed the back lower portion by about 5 mm and have no problem with it on our grass field, so that option is up to you. I replaced the 636 with the older 7350 7 channel AS3X only to get the option of flaperons and the airbrake. It rotates with minimal take-off flaps in 150' with no winds. In 10-15 mph head wind conditions, take-off flaps are definitely not needed. I did program the rate gains consistent with HH's original program and reduced the priority to 140, but I also did not include any heading gain or safe that they had because I am not a big fan of heading gain in anything other than 3D conditions. The recommended CG (if I remember correctly) is between 115-150 mm and for me, I like it better around the 140 range, which is with the battery almost as far aft as possible.

You should definitely enjoy flying this bird considering your experience with delta and semi-delta wing models. The SU-30 is big, flies heavy and is no speed demon, but it's presence in the air and in high alpha is impressive. The roll rate, even with greater than recommended high rates is very tame, certainly nothing like the F-16 or F-18, but that's to be expected. I'm sure you will not be disappointed.

Picked up a new AR7350 receiver on eBay today. Looking forward to trying flaperons with the separate speedbrake. Flew this past weekend with no wind and it added to the takeoff run and landing speed considerably. Stiil got up and out with plenty of runway to spare but no room to stop in the case of an RTO (refused takeoff). Not good. I'll set it up as you did with the same settings I have on the AR636B except I'll leave my priority settings at 100%. BTW, what are your flap deflections at takeoff and landing flaps? Just curious. I can set them up by sight but it's always nice to start with settings that are already working for someone. Thanks.

[Hugh Wiedman]

Picked up a new AR7350 receiver on eBay today. Looking forward to trying flaperons with the separate speedbrake. Flew this past weekend with no wind and it added to the takeoff run and landing speed considerably. Stiil got up and out with plenty of runway to spare but no room to stop in the case of an RTO (refused takeoff). Not good. I'll set it up as you did with the same settings I have on the AR636B except I'll leave my priority settings at 100%. BTW, what are your flap deflections at takeoff and landing flaps? Just curious. I can set them up by sight but it's always nice to start with settings that are already working for someone. Thanks.

I'm using relatively modest deflections, but they work very well for me. The main reason is that I don't want to over extend the aileron servos and for me, even the high rates in the manual were not enough. This thing does fly a bit like a fully loaded semi. BTW, I am flying it off of grass so the flaperons help immensely. With landing flaps and the speed brake, it should help quite a bit it getting a slower, smoother landing.

For take-off flaps=55% and 10mm with -3% up elevator (that's what I started with, not sure I'm still there as I set the trim utilities so I can trim both elevator and aileron at each flap setting)
For Landing Flaps=90% and 17mm with -6% up elevator.

Don't forget, since we are using flaperons, the travel is only 0 to 100%, not -100% to +100% that you can use for dedicated flaps.

The only thing I don't like about this jet is the 3-3:20 minute flight time with a Roaring Top 5500 70 C battery. Since this is an inrunner, I found that if you have a good high C battery, you will get about 7-9% more thrust on take-off (I've also found that with the outrunners, it doesn't make as much of a difference). I'm going to try my RT 6250 35 C, that won't have as much thrust, but hopefully longer flight times. Phantom posted some power draw numbers with the upgraded inrunner that both of us put in the F-16 and he got some good results with a HobbyStar 8000 mah 100C battery, but they are not available anywhere I can find them. They also cost $175 and weigh 920 g, so if I ever get my hands on one, I'll let you know how it works in the SU-30 (I want to try them in my F-16 as well, getting only 3:30 on that with the 70 C but have tried the 6250 and got about 20 more seconds, plus it's lighter).

Anyone tried the Spektrum 7000 mah 30 C? Heard one comment that it was also heavy, 890 g, and at 30 C won't get the top end thrust and the end result was not that much more in flight time since he had to use more throttle to move it around.

[jetdoc]

I'm using relatively modest deflections, but they work very well for me. The main reason is that I don't want to over extend the aileron servos and for me, even the high rates in the manual were not enough. This thing does fly a bit like a fully loaded semi. BTW, I am flying it off of grass so the flaperons help immensely. With landing flaps and the speed brake, it should help quite a bit it getting a slower, smoother landing.

For take-off flaps=55% and 10mm with -3% up elevator (that's what I started with, not sure I'm still there as I set the trim utilities so I can trim both elevator and aileron at each flap setting)
For Landing Flaps=90% and 17mm with -6% up elevator.

Don't forget, since we are using flaperons, the travel is only 0 to 100%, not -100% to +100% that you can use for dedicated flaps.

The only thing I don't like about this jet is the 3-3:20 minute flight time with a Roaring Top 5500 70 C battery. Since this is an inrunner, I found that if you have a good high C battery, you will get about 7-9% more thrust on take-off (I've also found that with the outrunners, it doesn't make as much of a difference). I'm going to try my RT 6250 35 C, that won't have as much thrust, but hopefully longer flight times. Phantom posted some power draw numbers with the upgraded inrunner that both of us put in the F-16 and he got some good results with a HobbyStar 8000 mah 100C battery, but they are not available anywhere I can find them. They also cost $175 and weigh 920 g, so if I ever get my hands on one, I'll let you know how it works in the SU-30 (I want to try them in my F-16 as well, getting only 3:30 on that with the 70 C but have tried the 6250 and got about 20 more seconds, plus it's lighter).

Anyone tried the Spektrum 7000 mah 30 C? Heard one comment that it was also heavy, 890 g, and at 30 C won't get the top end thrust and the end result was not that much more in flight time since he had to use more throttle to move it around.

Flap deflection values sound about right to me. I'm an aircraft mechanic by occupation and our Airbus and 777 aircraft employ flaperons in certain flight configurations. I know that flaperons are very effective but dampen aileron effectivity if the flap deflection is too severe. The new aileron "center" when flaps are down can be too much and cause the wing itself to block airflow from the "up" aileron causing a mushy roll. I'll use your values as a starting point.

Regarding your flight times, I am flying with an HRB 6s 6000mAh 50C lipo fully aft in the battery compartment. The CG is around 140-145mm aft of LE and I'm getting 4 minute flights consistently with 3.75v/cell left in the tank. I have a mixed flying style doing at least half of my turns in the vertical. I fly around at about half power when level but I do
like to punch it and light up the RCGeek burners from time to time! My Sukhoi has the FMS 30mm 1900kV inrunners so I would think they'd be pulling a little more juice than the stock 28mm 1850kV inrunners as well. And......., I picked them up for about $80 each on Amazon. Pilot Ryan on YouTube has a video where he flies the Su-30 with a Smart 7000. It seems to fly well, if a little nose-heavy, but he does measure the cells afterward so perhaps you could interpolate possible flight duration from that.

Thanks for the suggestions. Nice to exchange ideas with you.

[Hugh Wiedman]

Good Stuff jetdoc . 4 minutes isn't too bad, I'd take it. I'll see what the RT 6250 gives me next time out. The RC Geek afterburners :boom: look great on this one, I have them also. Bright even in sunlight since they are close to the end of the short nozzles. I did coat my nozzles with the aluminum AC duct tape and it helped quite a bit. Stay airborne!

[jetdoc]

Good Stuff jetdoc . 4 minutes isn't too bad, I'd take it. I'll see what the RT 6250 gives me next time out. The RC Geek afterburners :boom: look great on this one, I have them also. Bright even in sunlight since they are close to the end of the short nozzles. I did coat my nozzles with the aluminum AC duct tape and it helped quite a bit. Stay airborne!

Yeah, I really like the flicker of the RCGeek burners. I used the aluminum tape in my pipes as well. Really looks nice! I have the RCGeek burner in my MiG-21. It's farther up the end of the tailpipe than on the Sukhoi so it's not as noticeable except from directly aft or in low light and trust me, the MiG isn't the best plane in low light. Not for me anyway! My AR7350 should be here early next week. I had knee surgery yesterday so I'll have time to get in the shop and get her set up for flaperons as soon as it gets here. I know what you mean about the Sukhoi flying heavy. It actually feels like a much larger plane in the air. It was my turbine friends who convinced me to change to 100% stick priority in AS3X. They all fly their turbines that way and swore it would make the Su-30 feel as if it were on rails. They were right. I love the scale rolls and tracking in turns. I also love the way it grooves on final. Very solid, predictable plane. It's not a 3D plane by any means (thank Goodness for that) but it carries energy well and zooms nicely. I can carry an 80 degree climb forever but not quite 90. I see myself repainting it in a gray splinter scheme down the road. You can tell by the MiG-21 in my photo that I tend to do that after a while.

[Hugh Wiedman]

jetdoc I also switched out the 636 for a 7350 AS3X (for flaperons and the air brake) and used essentially the same gains, but without the SAFE and any heading hold they put in the original (I hate heading hold, can't really trim properly with it). I do have a higher priority though at 140% and it still flies on rails. I have the AS3X in every one of my planes/jets (I'll take all the help I can get), even my 60" Extreme Flight 3D planes. I also put the afterburners in every jet I have, even the Avanti and Stinger 90 (what, they are not supposed to have those?), and a sound system in every prop warbird, as any little visual or acoustic upgrade is a nice touch. I even added an AB in my 90 mm F-16 even though it already has a ring burner (the more the merrier). The afterburners actually help me with orientation when taking off in the morning/early afternoon into sunlight for our field's layout and predominant wind direction out of the east. The new twin burners for the single fan F-4 and F-18 really look much better as well. I'm planning on getting an A-10 one of these days and doing the Arctic number on it and most likely will also add AB's for it, definitely will be the only A-10 with those!

Afterburner City:

[DForbes]

jetdoc I also switched out the 636 for a 7350 AS3X (for flaperons and the air brake) and used essentially the same gains, but without the SAFE and any heading hold they put in the original (I hate heading hold, can't really trim properly with it). I do have a higher priority though at 140% and it still flies on rails. I have the AS3X in every one of my planes/jets (I'll take all the help I can get), even my 60" Extreme Flight 3D planes. I also put the afterburners in every jet I have, even the Avanti and Stinger 90 (what, they are not supposed to have those?), and a sound system in every prop warbird, as any little visual or acoustic upgrade is a nice touch. I even added an AB in my 90 mm F-16 even though it already has a ring burner (the more the merrier). The afterburners actually help me with orientation when taking off in the morning/early afternoon into sunlight for our field's layout and predominant wind direction out of the east. The new twin burners for the single fan F-4 and F-18 really look much better as well. I'm planning on getting an A-10 one of these days and doing the Arctic number on it and most likely will also add AB's for it, definitely will be the only A-10 with those!

Afterburner City:

Very Cool!, do you clear paint your planes or is that just the camera?

[Wild Man]

looks like Mr. Wiedman uses Carnuba Car wax really puts the spit shine on em. Makes em go faster too. LOL !!! :face_with_monocle:

[Hugh Wiedman]

Very Cool!, do you clear paint your planes or is that just the camera?

I use the water based clear gloss Spar Urethane exterior, hand paint it on. Sometimes up to 4 coats. It comes in all types of finish from flat/matte/semi-gloss/gloss and I suppose I should use the flat or matte for more scale like appearance (the gloss shows imperfections like foam gatoring more) but I do like the shiny gloss, glistens on a sunny day in the air (definitely not scale). The best part about it is that the foam is much more durable with the coating and holds graphics or additional paints so much better. Used to have to touch up even slightly all my planes/jets after flying because it seemed the paint would flake off at certain high stress areas, but no more. I do it to all my foam planes now. Additionally, I found that if you are doing a re-paint, if you coat the stock model with 1 or 2 coats first, you can easily mask any area without pulling up the stock paint. I did the F-18 Canadian that way and it was so much easier to finish (especially having to use home depot spray paint), 2 coats on the base grey, then could put trim tape and tape larger areas to get the 4 color separations.

Min-wax also makes a similar product and maybe others do as well (somewhere in the forum is a thread discussing the different types people use, some use spray as well) but they all work the same. I used this kind because I could get it from Amazon and have it delivered (Yes, I'm super lazy) and it's supposed to be avialable at Loews, but I've never found the exact one I needed. I like to use the water based, but just make sure it is the exterior type as the sun will yellow the plain interior type. Also make sure if you do it to mask servos control surface hinges, remove control rods and keep it away from any moving parts.

I hate showing pictures of my planes :lying_face: , but here's a few shots showing the final look of the F-4's better and a few prop planes after coating. If you do coat your planes, a word of caution. As you know, prolonged exposure to intense and direct sunlight and heat will actually hasten the gatoring of some foam (like you sometimes see in cockpits after a while from the suns magnification from the canopy and trapping in heat). These clear coats do that as well, but not from normal exposure. The last photo of my Olive B-24 shows more gatoring than it had at first, but that was from having to leave it on the runway for spectators to get a close look at all entrants last year at a warbirds festival where it was done at high noon in 98 degree weather with no clouds. It sat there for 3 hours because of judging for various awards. My B-24 won best WWII warbird, but ended up with a bit more gatoring than I'd like.

BTW, the photo above of the F-16 was before coating it, it looks outstanding IMO now and the F-18 Canadian and SU-30 above came out real nice also: