Official Freewing Twin 80mm/90mm A-10 Thunderbolt II Thread

[john2kx]

What's the part number for the nose gear retract unit only? I need a new one to either go with an existing strut or the new trailing link version.

Thanks,
Pete

Google motion RC freewing a10 spare parts, that will get you to all the gear choices

[janmb]

This: https://www.motionrc.com/products/fr...4-nose-retract

For my part, I'm holding off until I can get confirmation that the slop issue has been resolved.

[petefoss]

I'm out of the loop, are they redoing the nose gear retract?

[RCAV8R]

Thanks Rob!
I used Latex thinned with Windex for the camo using a single action airbrush. After a few days of curing, I shot a Black Acrylic wash which I thinned further with acrylic thinner for the shading. I did the taping method where you lay the tape next to the panel line and shoot on the tape. This lets the over spray do the shading. I use 3M low tack tape, de-tacking further by sticking it on my shirt or pants a few times. I then applied the decals and shot the entire plane with Kyrlon flat clear. When I thought I was finished, the wheels were way to white. I gave them a good spin and shot them with the same wash.

I have the upgrade TL nose gear and the upgraded mains will be here tomorrow. They're all getting a flat white paint job before install.

Nice! I thought I saw in the photos the effect of using tape for the panel line application. I just spent a couple of nights binge watching on You Tube videos of airbrushing techniques for model aircraft and came away with several ideas...many were like what you did. I think I went too heavy on the color coat of mine and lost the effect of all the pre-shading. I'm going to upgrade my airbrush, try some subtle post-shading and then do a wash to pick up the panel lines better. Nothing like a giant pallet to experiment with! Rob

[john2kx]

I'm out of the loop, are they redoing the nose gear retract?

Only one style retract but there is now a choice when it comes to struts, oleo or trailing link. Plenty of info here posted about them.

[Gringotuerto]

I just received the upgrade trailing link nosegear yesterday, and this morning read that it actually doesn't fit - the wheel hits the gear door at full compression. That is a pretty amazing error - I mean, we have all experienced making a nice part and then putting it in and discovering that we forgot something, and it doesn't fit after all. That is common. But going into production and selling a bunch of them....that's a pretty big oops. Not quite in the same league with the Hubble telescope mirror, but not good. Anyway, maybe it is already posted here, but a guy on RCgroups has the most elegant solution I have seen. Verrry simple and quick:

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...ostcount=10365

[john2kx]

I just received the upgrade trailing link nosegear yesterday, and this morning read that it actually doesn't fit - the wheel hits the gear door at full compression. That is a pretty amazing error - I mean, we have all experienced making a nice part and then putting it in and discovering that we forgot something, and it doesn't fit after all. That is common. But going into production and selling a bunch of them....that's a pretty big oops. Not quite in the same league with the Hubble telescope mirror, but not good. Anyway, maybe it is already posted here, but a guy on RCgroups has the most elegant solution I have seen. Verrry simple and quick:

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...ostcount=10365

Gringo,

I’m the guy who posted here and on rcgroups hoping to gain some tribal knowledge. Find it strange that more pilots haven’t had the same experience I have. Well, I have found two others but no real cure posted yet. One guy ripped his gear door off and I found his repair found on YouTube. Notching out the gear door is not what I wanted to do, so I came up with the plastic bushing. Too early to say if this mechanical stop is the “cure” yet since I have not been able to flight test due to rain. I feel sure tire won’t make contact with rear door now, but not sure limiting the stroke won’t bring bounced landings back.

I won’t be able to test until next weekend now.

John

[john2kx]

What I did find in my research is that there was a TL strut used early on in the initial production stages, and I just noticed the amount of stroke on that piece appears to be 1/2 of that on the latest TL strut. Having issue with posting pics right now. Will try later.

edit: attached pic is of early TL gear

John

[Dirty Dee]

A few more detail bits and I think I will be set for a stand-off scale cockpit. ACES II was a challenge to model.

[Porkster]

A few more detail bits and I think I will be set for a stand-off scale cockpit. ACES II was a challenge to model.

Thats spot on! Good work there DD

[Jimrc73]

First attempt at panel lines for me. What do ya think?:Thinking:

Absolutely awesome!!!!! Nice job!

Regards,
Jim

[tclaridge]

Dirty Dee, what CAD program do you use?

[Gringotuerto]

I'm out of the loop, are they redoing the nose gear retract?

If you look on MotionRC and compare "spare parts" with "upgrade parts", you can see that the original set has trailing link mains (but a weird style of trailing link with tension spring instead of compression spring), and straight oleo on the nosegear. The upgrade gear has a trailing link nose gear (of standard compression-spring/oleo type), and straight mains (also of standard spring type). It is supposed to reduce bounce. The upgrade nosegear, however, doesn't actually fit - in the compressed position it would hit the gear door. Oops. So then there is discussion about modification, either by limiting the travel or by moving/notching the gear door.

[Gringotuerto]

.....not sure limiting the stroke won’t bring bounced landings back....

John

John, a few things:
1. It is ingeniously simple, thanks for posting it.
2. I assume that limiting travel can only have a negative effect in increasing shock (by decreasing shock absorption). It would not increase bounce.
3. The only concern I had is that under shock it might pop off. I know some people pressed on the nose and said it was solid, but I don't think a slow press on the nose is the same as a hard landing. I might wrap something around it after it is on, just the make it less likely to come off the same way it went on.

I have only had two landings on this plane, and both went perfectly, no hint of a bounce. But of course everything in flying seems easy until it doesn't go well.

Motion has "upgrades" for mains and nosegear. Was there ever any consensus that the bounce was mainly due to one or the other? I have read mixed advice on this. Before these upgrade gear came out, some people focused on clipping springs from the mains, or switching the mains. So I wonder if anyone just tried the upgrade mains without putting in the upgrade nosegear. That would also solve the nosegear fitting problem - just don't install it.

[Sky Wolf]

Just to keep this whole thing in perspective and not let it get too far off base here, just a few reminders.

1. Not everyone is having bounce issues with this plane. Any plane can "bite you" and have a bounce. Check out only a few honest YouTube videos and you'll see it.

2. There are two situations to address (well, maybe 3). The first is that you have to decide which gear are best for you based on what surface you fly from. Grass or pavement? The plane came with gear that were suited for those asking for grass-ready type gear, those being the oleo struts. Many pilots are not having much issue with them at all flying from both surfaces.

Secondly, each pilot has a preference for how scale they want their jet to look. Motion has answered quickly to a majority of the requests made by it's base (that's all of us). And not everything is perfect, but my goodness, I'm so impressed by what MRC does for all of us as their family base of customer/pilots!!

Thirdly, there is not anything anyone can do to have a perfect landing 100% of the time that will prevent a bounce. I'm sure at some point I'll have one of those too with this jet. But when you have enough of them you somehow learn how that plane wants to be flown and landed. I watched enough videos during our first run to see exactly what was happening to cause that "Bronco Bounce". That doesn't mean I won't eventually have a circumstance to cause one, but from past bounces on other planes and watching what was happening with this one, we all have to learn to fly this and all planes all the way in to touchdown that have the tendency to bounce, as well as keeping the nose up, and touch down on the mains.

I'm not bragging at all guys. Just trying to help save headaches, money from having to purchase replacement parts, and confusion from possible mis-information or over-zealous responses to ones personal experiences. I fly mostly from pavement and have so far flown only with the original struts. I'll be trying out the new upgrades to see how they respond to both surfaces, grass and pavement. Hope I don't learn something the hard way!
This is simple flying technique. If you've ever flown a scale plane, or even watched real planes land, this is what you see. I had a hard landing as a kid while training in a Cessna, and it was totally caused by my not holding the flare. I rattled my Dad's teeth something awful!! It's funny now LOL That was almost 37 years ago, but they are still flying them in and holding flare even still today.

Ok, well fourthly, there are more successful landings out there with no bounces than there are those with bounces. This clearly shows it's usually mostly about the piloting and what we can do to learn this plane. If it was completely about the "failure of the design of the retracts or the plane", there would be so many more cases of this happening as an "EPIDEMIC". Clearly not the case here.

This jet is by far the best scale foamy A-10 any company in the past has produced thus far. Beats them by a large marker!!

I would like to suggest that in order to keep this company moving forward with us in mind, that with every "One" not so good, valid comment made, that we be sure to add in 2-3 positives to go along with it. This would eliminate the appearance that someone is wanting to tear down a reputation.

No company or product is absolutely perfect, but guys, this company has impressed and garnered attention by their service, to what I would imagine to be 98% of its customers who would agree, that Motion does what others won't and haven't done in the past.

They have set the bar high for others to follow!!

I hope most would agree! Happy Flying pilots :a10

[janmb]

Sky Wolf, spot on.

While the model does punish imperfect landings a tad more than necessary, it's important to keep perspective. Most people operate this model with little or no issues. I have two bounces in 165 flights - one being in 35mph crosswind.

While we should strive to perfect the model to be as robust and forgiving as possible, in the end of the day it is far more important that we as pilots don't blame the model for what is essentially our own mistakes. There are very real limits to how much a 13lbs model can compensate for.

[Sky Wolf]

John, a few things:
1. It is ingeniously simple, thanks for posting it.
2. I assume that limiting travel can only have a negative effect in increasing shock (by decreasing shock absorption). It would not increase bounce.
3. The only concern I had is that under shock it might pop off. I know some people pressed on the nose and said it was solid, but I don't think a slow press on the nose is the same as a hard landing. I might wrap something around it after it is on, just the make it less likely to come off the same way it went on.

I have only had two landings on this plane, and both went perfectly, no hint of a bounce. But of course everything in flying seems easy until it doesn't go well.

Motion has "upgrades" for mains and nosegear. Was there ever any consensus that the bounce was mainly due to one or the other? I have read mixed advice on this. Before these upgrade gear came out, some people focused on clipping springs from the mains, or switching the mains. So I wonder if anyone just tried the upgrade mains without putting in the upgrade nosegear. That would also solve the nosegear fitting problem - just don't install it.

Good question Gringo: I wonder if anyone has done this too?

Hey John, did the plane have any tendency to want to bounce with the new NG before you limited the travel?

[Dirty Dee]

Dirty Dee, what CAD program do you use?

I'm using Solidworks.

[Gringotuerto]

Here’s a strange “what if” to consider. We all know that pretty much any plane can porpoise on landing. I have flown my A-10 only a couple times, and no porpoising at all. I have flown my Avanti about 20 times, and got the bucking bronco two times. Now here’s the odd thing – I never considered changing my landing gear on the Avanti, because everybody on all forums (including me) agrees that it is a very easy plane to fly and land. I screwed it up a couple times, but I just assume it is my fault and move on.

But if I experienced this same thing on the A-10, I would see it differently. I would think “aha, I finally experienced the flaw everybody is talking about.” And I would post, saying it happened to me too.

So there is kind of a “positive feedback” loop between the mention of an issue and further mentions of the same issue. Once we read about something, we think of it with a bit of pre-judgement.

So, what if the probability of bouncing is exactly the same on these two planes, but due to initial conditions (maybe a couple guys posted videos early in the life of the plane,etc..), this “positive feedback” loop got out of control until everybody is talking about bouncing on the A-10? The fact that it is frequently discussed on one forum and not on the other is not evidence of anything, because of the positive feedback effect: posts on topic A will generate more posts on topic A.

I’m not saying I believe this is the case. I’m just pointing out – none of really know. The only way you could determine for sure is to have a large number of pilots record many flights under exactly the same conditions on both planes. Then you could say – “for the average pilot, this plane bucks more.” We don’t have such data. In fact, I only have one tiny data set of me flying both, and if I were to extrapolate my own data, the Avanti is bouncier. And yet I see no discussion of landing gear mods (for bouncing at least) on Avanti forums.

What if all this discussion of A-10 bounciness is just the howl of a speaker/microphone in positive feedback?

[Sky Wolf]

Here’s a strange “what if” to consider. We all know that pretty much any plane can porpoise on landing. I have flown my A-10 only a couple times, and no porpoising at all. I have flown my Avanti about 20 times, and got the bucking bronco two times. Now here’s the odd thing – I never considered changing my landing gear on the Avanti, because everybody on all forums (including me) agrees that it is a very easy plane to fly and land. I screwed it up a couple times, but I just assume it is my fault and move on.

But if I experienced this same thing on the A-10, I would see it differently. I would think “aha, I finally experienced the flaw everybody is talking about.” And I would post, saying it happened to me too.

So there is kind of a “positive feedback” loop between the mention of an issue and further mentions of the same issue. Once we read about something, we think of it with a bit of pre-judgement.

So, what if the probability of bouncing is exactly the same on these two planes, but due to initial conditions (maybe a couple guys posted videos early in the life of the plane,etc..), this “positive feedback” loop got out of control until everybody is talking about bouncing on the A-10? The fact that it is frequently discussed on one forum and not on the other is not evidence of anything, because of the positive feedback effect: posts on topic A will generate more posts on topic A.

I’m not saying I believe this is the case. I’m just pointing out – none of really know. The only way you could determine for sure is to have a large number of pilots record many flights under exactly the same conditions on both planes. Then you could say – “for the average pilot, this plane bucks more.” We don’t have such data. In fact, I only have one tiny data set of me flying both, and if I were to extrapolate my own data, the Avanti is bouncier. And yet I see no discussion of landing gear mods (for bouncing at least) on Avanti forums.

What if all this discussion of A-10 bounciness is just the howl of a speaker/microphone in positive feedback?

Excellent point!

And I believe it’s all info that’s well-considered as it’s being communicated. Looking forward to more communication on the upgrade usage and experiences.