Official Freewing 80mm Avanti S Sport Jet Thread

[TiredIronGRB]

Are there flight time and thrust that noticable? I have version 1 and love the color of the new one. Might get another one over the L39 . Thanks so much.

I'm not sure about the top speed but you would definitely see longer flight time, you really can't go wrong with either one.

[CDN_Iceman]

Yikes there was frost on the tables at the field today. What an amazing plane to fly. The jet looked great in the clear blue sky.

[Mach9]

[QUOTE=Alpha.MotionRC;n156441]Hi Lipripper, I'm glad you're enjoying your Avantis!

Regarding the servos, we've been mentioning this in almost every new plane thread since the MiG-21 in 2016, so don't worry we've been watching this and collecting data for some time. It is not a "flap" related issue so much as it is a "slowing" issue. The servo used in the flap position in most of our planes is also used on other flight surfaces on those planes. The difference is that the servos used in the flap position are sometimes slowed by users. However, the issue remains extremely rare, which hampers diagnosis. Statistically speaking, only a tiny, tiny fraction of pilots report servo issues in the flap position, but of those that do, almost all of them do share a common theme --they were slowing the servo. So logic would point to slowing as the probable although inconsistent cause. We've looked at possible correlations with receiver type, gyro frequency, ubec, etc, but none are clear.

Of course, most pilots, including people like you who have had zero issues with slowed flaps on your other planes, would defensively say "But I always slow my flaps and never had problems", so you can see the dilemma. That data is true, too. All we can observe is that there is only one consistent correlation, even if it is still a rare correlation, across a multi-year international data set across many thousands of aircraft, servos, and flights.

For the record, the Freewing factory pilots still slow their servos on some of the EDFs as a matter of their personal preferences, and I've never witnessed a flap servo failure. That's their prerogative as pilots, as it is for all our customers. But personally, I eliminate that variable altogether by running the servo at normal speed.

With similar logic, most of us don't arrange our receiver antennas in perfectly opposite planes from each other inside the aircraft, or don't range check before every flight, and yet most of us probably haven't experienced a related issue. But that doesn't change the fact that doing those measures would undeniably reduce our statistical risk of encountering reception issues.

Another fun example: Getting bit by a shark already carries a very low risk of happening, but clearly the guy who never gets in the ocean will lower that risk even further. I prefer to not get in the slowed servo ocean. But I don't cynically think those of you surfing are all automatically going to get eaten.



I fly 72Mhz and have never had the flaps on a delay. They are on a slider which I have full control of as to speed and position at any time. I have had trouble with one side since the first batch and delay had no bearing in my case. So far, after the factory redone hand soldered wing boards I have not seen the problem. Knock on wood. I still think it is a servo problem but can not prove or disprove that at this time.

[Mach9]

I can't fly my Avanti S without the use of flaps (1/2 for take off, full for landing). I use a 4 second deployment. The thing balloons like crazy when they deploy immediately. With elevator compensation, it only works until the plane slows down, then with all that down elevator, the plane heads for dirt and on landing, it's getting close to the ground - not a good time to be fighting with it as it tries to take a dirt nap. If it's a circuitry issue, I'd prefer to fix the electronic issue than to use no delay. If it's the board, then by-pass the board.

I personally have never seen mine balloon at any flap speed. I manually control the flaps and usually just drop them down in a second or so. Not very scale. The CG may have some to do with it but really if it balloons then I think you may be too fast for flaps.

[xviper]

I personally have never seen mine balloon at any flap speed. I manually control the flaps and usually just drop them down in a second or so. Not very scale. The CG may have some to do with it but really if it balloons then I think you may be too fast for flaps.

I'm going to disagree here. Of course, the plane is going too fast if it balloons with sudden flap deployment. The point is, if the flaps are deployed slowly, the speed can decrease along with the flap deployment and hence, no ballooning.

An after-thought ........................... When you deploy flaps, you changing the shape of the wing and the aerodynamic characteristics of that wing. If you deploy them suddenly, it's either going to balloon or drop, depending on the type and shape of the wing. If you don't see any change in flight characteristics, then I contend that you have some amount of elevator compensation dialed in or you aren't observing very well. You can't change the shape of the wing with flaps and not see something happen. If nothing happens, flaps would be pointless. Real planes don't drop their flaps in the blink of an eye. If they did, passengers on airlines would be wearing their orange juice.

[Sheriffjohn]

[QUOTE=Mach9;n156933]

Hi Lipripper, I'm glad you're enjoying your Avantis!

Regarding the servos, we've been mentioning this in almost every new plane thread since the MiG-21 in 2016, so don't worry we've been watching this and collecting data for some time. It is not a "flap" related issue so much as it is a "slowing" issue. The servo used in the flap position in most of our planes is also used on other flight surfaces on those planes. The difference is that the servos used in the flap position are sometimes slowed by users. However, the issue remains extremely rare, which hampers diagnosis. Statistically speaking, only a tiny, tiny fraction of pilots report servo issues in the flap position, but of those that do, almost all of them do share a common theme --they were slowing the servo. So logic would point to slowing as the probable although inconsistent cause. We've looked at possible correlations with receiver type, gyro frequency, ubec, etc, but none are clear.

Of course, most pilots, including people like you who have had zero issues with slowed flaps on your other planes, would defensively say "But I always slow my flaps and never had problems", so you can see the dilemma. That data is true, too. All we can observe is that there is only one consistent correlation, even if it is still a rare correlation, across a multi-year international data set across many thousands of aircraft, servos, and flights.

For the record, the Freewing factory pilots still slow their servos on some of the EDFs as a matter of their personal preferences, and I've never witnessed a flap servo failure. That's their prerogative as pilots, as it is for all our customers. But personally, I eliminate that variable altogether by running the servo at normal speed.

With similar logic, most of us don't arrange our receiver antennas in perfectly opposite planes from each other inside the aircraft, or don't range check before every flight, and yet most of us probably haven't experienced a related issue. But that doesn't change the fact that doing those measures would undeniably reduce our statistical risk of encountering reception issues.

Another fun example: Getting bit by a shark already carries a very low risk of happening, but clearly the guy who never gets in the ocean will lower that risk even further. I prefer to not get in the slowed servo ocean. But I don't cynically think those of you surfing are all automatically going to get eaten.



I fly 72Mhz and have never had the flaps on a delay. They are on a slider which I have full control of as to speed and position at any time. I have had trouble with one side since the first batch and delay had no bearing in my case. So far, after the factory redone hand soldered wing boards I have not seen the problem. Knock on wood. I still think it is a servo problem but can not prove or disprove that at this time.

Here is another data point, or two. I slow my flaps from my transmitter. While testing the flaps, the Port servo stuck and did not fully deploy. I sped up my flap speed, but did not go to normal speed. I've not had a problem since. A fellow in the same club also had a flap fail to deploy while flying. He now does not slow his flaps at all.

SJ

[Steeleagle]

I have no delay built into the flaps. I had an issue with one not retracting on the 4th flight and subsequently removed the 3 second delay I had built into my transmitter. Over 100 flights later I have had no further issues. Also my experience is the same as Mach9 - I have noticed no ballooning at any speed - which is different from most of my models which require some elevator compensation at flap extension.

[Mach9]

"An after-thought ........................... When you deploy flaps, you changing the shape of the wing and the aerodynamic characteristics of that wing. If you deploy them suddenly, it's either going to balloon or drop, depending on the type and shape of the wing. If you don't see any change in flight characteristics, then I contend that you have some amount of elevator compensation dialed in or you aren't observing very well. You can't change the shape of the wing with flaps and not see something happen. If nothing happens, flaps would be pointless. Real planes don't drop their flaps in the blink of an eye. If they did, passengers on airlines would be wearing their orange juice."

True I am not very observant due to I can't see it all that well way out. I don't use any programmed elevator compensation and don't SEE/notice any ballooning or dropping but it does slow down like putting on the brakes. Yeah, if people were inside they would feel it. With a slider I can control how fast and how much flap I want when I want it. I guess I just instinctively mix all of the controls together with my hands. Maybe I automatically increase or reduce elevator without any thought. I know I am not going negative with the elevator. No such thing as a programmable radio when I started out.

[Mach9]

Just had a thought (insert jokes here)...I wonder if the flaps could be made to stick with manual control moving slow. Maybe the feedback pot in the servo is faulty and if you can land on the exact spot moving slow it will "hang" but when you move faster it slides past it. Kinda like getting stuck in a muddy ditch crossing driving slow but can bounce through with momentum going faster. It would probably not be noticed for other control surfaces. Maybe there is contamination (lube?) or a scratch in the carbon of the pot or the wiper contact to pad is not perfect due to a micro warp in manufacture or assembly. One person commented that they had a stuck flap and it moved when they touched it. Testing that would not be easy if it is a tiny spot considering how many steps of resolution there are and that it could work sometimes. If someone has a super high resolution radio system maybe they could use the sub trim function to move one step at a time in a given position to try and catch it. Ideally a high-end servo tester would be the tool of choice. It may be a case where end or side pressure on the shaft will cause a distortion that affects the pot. Intermittent ghosts are hard to catch. The person that can definitively solve the problem should receive a free jet!

[xviper]

Just had a thought (insert jokes here)...I wonder if the flaps could be made to stick with manual control moving slow.

Interesting topic. On my two flights yesterday with my L-39, one flap didn't completely zero out after I did a very slow pass in front of me. The plane began to roll and I had to use a lot of AIL to keep it straight. It was time to land anyway, so I deployed 1/2 flaps and the plane didn't tend to roll anymore and on full flaps, the plane easily landed with no roll tendency. I could not duplicate it on the ground. I think that in the air, a lot of things are happening with regards to multiple servos being actuated and a lot of varying voltages are running through the board. I still believe it's something to do with that control board. When the TX is trying to push through a slowed down signal for the flaps, the slow varying voltage change can't be interpreted properly as it goes through the board. Many people have by-passed the board for the flaps (and other things) and the flaps work perfectly fine in the slowed down mode from that point on. I tried to do that with the L-39 but the leads run through those junction boxes on the top of the center wing and I didn't feel like taking the wing off at the time. Those who have dialed in "zero" delay have also not had any further problems. When I get time, I'll by-pass the board with the L-39 flaps. I think I've already done it with my Avanti S. I prefer slow flaps. I think you can get away with no slow down on the flaps if you are instinctive enough to compensate with your thumb OR if you deploy after the plane has slowed down to near stall. The flaps then helps the plane fly by lowering the stall speed and ballooning is greatly reduced. You also may not "observed" any balloon effect because the Avanti S is THAT well designed as a model. I have not tried the L-39 on zero delay flaps so perhaps it too, is THAT well designed. Also, by using a slider for your flaps, you are able to manually command the speed of the deployment.
I've seen this issue with previous versions of these boards and I have by-passed them and hooked the flaps up directly to the RX and never a problem since.

[Marksj100]

Great flights today. All works perfectly

[Mach9]

xviper I have had the problem but have never used a delay for the flaps. I have not bypassed the board. It very well could be the problem. The signal duration changes but the voltages should be regulated enough to be stable. The only time the voltage of a signal is intentionally changed is when using amplitude modulation (AM) and that is not the case with servos. The servos are only looking for the pulse width and as long as the minimum voltage is maintained it will work. A lower voltage will cause the servo motor to run slower but it will still work without any hangups. If the board is causing the servo to stop then it has stopped sending a signal or the power or ground has opened. If a signal loss beeper was installed between the board and the servo it would sound when there is a loss. Perhaps a telemetry unit could send an alert.

[xviper]

I'm not sure about this generation of control boards, but the older ones that first showed up used common grounding for each input and output and I believe this was the main deficiency of those old boards. Hooking up servos directly to the Rx may have provided a more distinct ground and this was the workaround to having everything go through those boards. The grounding in those boards may not have been sufficient. This may or may not be the case in today's boards.
The board concept was introduced to make connections easier, hence assembly and disassembly much easier for transportation. By-passing the board for some problematic servos seemed to resolve the situation.

[T-CAT]

Does anyone have an extra foam EDF hatch/cover for the Avanti that you wish to sell?

It does not appear that Motion sells this part, unfortunately.

[Twowingtj]

Does anyone have an extra foam EDF hatch/cover for the Avanti that you wish to sell?

It does not appear that Motion sells this part, unfortunately.

I've got one T-CAT. Check your PM

[Bcool831]

Hey guys. I ordered the new red version and recieved it in 2 days. Now waiting on my rx to show up. I will add the wood in front of the nose gear to strengthen it and also thinking about removing the board and going with y leads with extensions.

[T-CAT]

I figured I’d give the Avanti a fresh look, even though I like the yellow paint scheme they chose. This plane is still one of my all time favorite “fly it how you want to” type of jets from Freewing. With decal sheets on hand from a bunch of different planes, I decided to go with a Top Gun Aggressor paint scheme in a Splinter type camo, but one that won’t be affected too badly by the sun and the “popcorn” effect. It was an overall quick paint job with no extensive prep. work, no sanding, and no decal removal, but it came out pretty decent and should show up nicely in the air.

[Bcool831]

Very cool Tcat.
So far I have only managed to glue my canopy, blendern tape my hinge lines and insert 2 minion pilot- ish figures. Gotta love free toys from MickeyD’s. I failed to take a pic but will this week when I’m done at work.

[T-CAT]

Very cool Tcat.
So far I have only managed to glue my canopy, blendern tape my hinge lines and insert 2 minion pilot- ish figures. Gotta love free toys from MickeyD’s. I failed to take a pic but will this week when I’m done at work.

LOL the Minion pilot idea is fantastic! Definitely take a picture of that :Cool:. That’s the fun part of sport jets when they don’t resemble a full sized aircraft, just put whatever you want in it and make it yours without any thought about “scale”. That’s a ton of fun.

[Alpha]

T-Cat I love your Avanti, well done!