Alternative motor windings and drive schemes

[Clugh]

The reason I'm at these winding machines is because they are on site as I'm truly looking for A dynamic rotor balancer.

[Clugh]

Here is a very important piece to the power system puzzIe I have tried to explain for years.

Why are you chasing a sinus power system with a sinus wind and sinus inverter in 12N10P?

Pay attention to what Dr Howe, Ishak, and Zhu have to say in this passage;

The instantaneous electromagnetic torque for either brushless dc or ac operation can be calculated from


where e_a,e_b,e_c,i_a,i_b,i_c and are the instantaneous back EMFs and currents in phases A,B, and C, respectively. When the three 12-slot/ten-pole motors which have been considered in this paper are supplied with 120 rectangular current waveforms (10-A amplitude), i.e., brushless dc operation, the predicted output torque waveforms are as shown in Fig. 10(a). Clearly, since motor C has the most trapezoidal phase back-EMF waveform, it has a higher torque capability as well as a significantly lower torque ripple.

[Clugh]

[Clugh]

The cliche is the sinus but I'm all about the trap!

[Chxpress]

Hi Hubert,
why sine on 12N10P? Because it is completely different from the others. The motor with the SPS sheet metal cut is not equidistant, even in the stator tooth distribution. Every second tooth is wider, which results in completely different conditions. The magnetic cut results in a sine emf. The wrapping factor is different for asymmetrical designs. One cannot simply overlook such differences. It gets even more complicated with drilling and flux barriers, you really have to take a close look at the magnetic field booms that have studied this with Ansys or Femm. You can't just jump from one design to another just because it has a few similarities.
The sensored motor would be a winner over all the Scorpions as they go in syncloss much early far away from highest Power. i will post the motor later.

Happy Amps Christian

[Clugh]

Chris,
Let me repeat myself I personally have no use for a sinus power system! If I want max torque and max rpm. A sinus system isnt it. With the hybrid it is also a mismatch since we have just read the mixed tooth single layer also creates a trap! If a end user like sinus use it. But I wouldnt for SAW. I'm different as I want a pure BLDC power system and that's it. The HK speed engine uses the sinus winding especially a wye. Is it the pinnacle? I cannot see it It isnt optimal with BLHELI or scorpions tribunis 6 step commutation which again is a trap. People can cry but the drone market and hobby industry move away from sinus drives. Hacker made one what did it do?

Nothing special....

The hybrid winding does not produce a sinus BEMF and if you run it that way with a blac inverter you only inject more torque ripple. I don't think that's the way to go

Hubert

[Clugh]

The 12N10P is also noisy enuf especially the single layer. It isnt my topology of choice in the first place. Secondly the hybrid is not a SPS cut. A 24 slot 22 pole is alot cleaner from the Jump. The right turns .98 ratio also eliminate the sub harmonic. The parallel slotted Lehner outrunner according to the paper Hanz allowed through here does not generate a sinus. The trap Bemf is what is shown in the paper. I wasn't supposed to show the paper but obviously I have it. everyone also know between the single layer and dual layer which is more Trap like. It's the single layer. If you have literature stating other wise you must post it.

None of the seniors or fellows give you that notion at all. I'm also here with a scope so that kills all speculation about the wave forms. its very tru that at the highest loads the single layers rotor will fall out first because of all the slotting effects on the pm. if something isnt done to attenuate that it simple isnt as clean harmonically as the dual layer. except for Dr Islams hybrid version the cleanest versions like Dr Gerlings all lose a little torque but made much better efficiency and a superior power factor. You cannot utilize the extra torque a SL makes if its counteracted by hot magnets, negative noise, and torque ripple..

Im not going to be crazy and leave the PhD's or my scope. I have no idea why they seem to be absent there when people are analyzing winds with unilog....

At some point someone there on the forum needs to turn one on! Without it they do not see the things I do so it would really be nothing to talk about.

[Clugh]

Here is the 600 dual layer parallel wye and beside it to the right the 2 single layer inner deltas terminated. These generated BEMF would look quite different on a scope. 👀 I been there already many times before. All is left is six open end 4 turns coils serially connected to the inner delta it will finish with only 2 strands per motor terminal. It will be tight because that's 11 turns into the 600 . If I can only fit 3 ill settle just so we understand it runs and can gather some data about the bell temp under load. That's where I think you could view the difference on the rotor and pm's empirically. Of course you'd expect lower idle currents load currents without losing rpm or gain a few rpm for the same load current.

The typical 600 I wind for F3A is 10 turns. You can see how the bobbin look there. So imagine the 11 turns. The single layer because it is compact may make it easier to fit the 4 turns I Dunno. I have a HK 5020 big wire 12N10P hybrid I am working on as well.

If I use a pigtail serial connection of the deltas to the wye motors I can bring it all out side the hood and let it cool there. Also you could terminate there and just run dual inverter to the inner deltas or the Hybrids on the wye side your choice, OR you could tuck it under the hood. and run the one hybrid motor.

The motor would allow you to test the holistic parallel hybrid wind or the dual inverters on each delta.

It does not take 5 years to end the proxy war. I never see it as that. For me it's just about finding out what will work and what will not.

BTW Is the winding forum dead there? Or is everyone there still deciding on whether or not they want peace?



Hubert

[Clugh]

This cut would actually work pretty well on a scorpion I do believe. The toothless cut above the APD only need the primary teeth to match the pole pitch. You already know what that open slot does. The date is wrong obviously. it was 2024. we can wind up the Parallel slot and drive it with a prime mover and look directly at the wave form the geometry and delta termination would create with the rotor from an HK. A reverse stepped sinus magnet that injects triplen current obviously does something different but that is not what an HK or any other of the radially slotted motors have.

Thanks for your time and patience,
Hubert

[Chxpress]

Hi Hubert,

some pics from the oszi. You see no flat . This is pure emk , driven motor by extern drive. No other noice.
first the Lehner 4125/5 and then second the t-motor AT 4130 kv 300 .

Happy Amps Christian

[Chxpress]

Hi Hubert,

some pics from the oszi. You see no flat . This is pure emk , driven motor by extern drive. No other noice.
first the Lehner 4125/5 and then second the t-motor AT 4130 kv 300 .

Happy Amps Christian

[Clugh]

If you look at your waveforms there you can see the small triplen at the tops and bottoms of the crest of the small one making it a BLDC waveform that is sinus like but not a true sinus. The other as you can planely see isnt a sinus at all and you see the triplen in it as well. That is the "S" wave on slopes of the rise and fall.

Yeah it runs with FOC thats speed limited and still not as torque dense as a trap system i Enjoy the picture but they do not change anything about what has been provided here. I stand by it because im am here with the hybrid wind. Yeah that great and since you see my scope shot YOU also see the definitive change. Now go drive a load with the FOC drive then use a BLDC six step and when you FOC drive has outdone the trap drive it actually means something. A SAW is not the same as slow flying agricultural drone drive technology. See how many tmotor FOC drives you find powering fast drones in the DRL. probably not one.

Blac systems are not as powerdense as a pure BLDC power system. And again I have the waveform from a lab study of the 7050 and it isn't a sinus either. If is a sinus as you may think then don't recommend a castle inverter for it because it is not a FOC drive or a sinus drive in the least way.

[Clugh]

Here is the same thing. And no sir this is not a true Sinus signature. Not at all.

And this is what generated it!!! A single layer 5020 HK!! And would look more non sinusoidal as a Delta! Do you see it? Without something done to the rotor or the harmonic noise the LRK's creates the rotor will fall out before the dual layer, A dual layer wye waveform will be much smoother at the tops and bottoms than your examples or this one. I'm not a pure hobbyist I can actually read a scope.

Thank you,
Hubert

[Clugh]

Now that a scope has emerged. wind half a stator delta and drive it....Then you will know what I know about the TMOTOR there... its own drive wont suffice as the most efficient in the dual inverter commissioning. A 6 step would. I know it without a doubt.



Hubert

[Clugh]

Here is A dual layer wye Align. As you can see is much more sinus like but still none are TRU sinus. you see the noise at the tops and bottom of the waves. but its definitively different than what a single layer generates.



Thanks
Hubert

[Clugh]

My scope and experience fully agree with what is written here by the top minds in the field:

IEEE TRANSACTIONS ON ENERGY CONVERSION,VOL.21,NO.1,MARCH 200695

Comparison of PM Brushless Motors,Having Either All Teeth or AlternateTeethWound

DahamanIshak,Z.Q.Zhu,SeniorMember,IEEE,and David Howe

One of the reference papers used in Gerling's findings...

It seems Dahamanlshak, Z.Q. Zhu and David Howe suggest through finite element predictions and real practice a few conclusive comparisons of DL and SL motor winds.

*SL's winds have more trapazoidal BEMF that DL's.
*SL's winds have more self inductance than DL's.
* SL's showed less cogging torque when driven by zero cross algorithms(BLDC) than DL's which would be lower if driven in BLAC.
*Static and output torque output is higher with SL's
*SL's have higher torque density.

And lastly not reported in this paper but should be noted SL's have more copper fill potential.

The BEMF measurements taken on an oscilloscope played a major role in the real time confirmation of theory in this Dajaku Gerling reference.

Paraphrased conclusion:

The winding factor significantly effects the BEMF waveform as well as the self and mutual inductance's while the motors exhibit low cogging because of the fractional number of slots per pole

[Clugh]

The mixed tooth paper also comes from him and in it what you will see is a trap waveform for the new topology and winding arrangement.

[Clugh]

maybe what they said isnt clear so let me repost it.

The speed pilots have no use for a sinus system. The castle inverter I recommended to you for your 41 series motor that JAGS using now is also certainly not that.

[Clugh]

Chris you also need a true scope microcontroller based that can show you the FFT capture and other cool things. A decent one with 4 channels is very inexpensive in 2025. toward the end of the year I will put a Yokogawa motor PA in the kitchen lab. They are 3 to 5 bands. A band is 1000.00 dollars USD! but that's not even a mothy payment on a Ferrari. Why you so cheap with the diagnostics that would end all proxy wars.....

[Chxpress]

Hi,
they are all no real sin , that s not the question and i am not looking for a saw drive , i have it . I want to look how good is tje foc from t-motor and what can it offer . All times best is the sensor driven motor , no quest as you can run it at loads the other will never reach. And it is so essy to do. I am wondering wy no one used it .

Happy Amps Christian