Alternative motor windings and drive schemes

[Clugh]

Stark Future

[Clugh]

Hi Hubert,

Did you know that in 2002 I pointed out to Hans Lehner that he should use the E-factor trick for the F3A aerobatic drive for his pilot Michael Ramel with the counter-rotating propellers which are driven by a torque-free planetary gear with a single-stage planetary gear by the counter-rotating propellers double the maximum reduction again. Jörg Marschal, the mechanic who built the test bench that I showed you a few years ago, then manufactured the first counter-rotating drive with a Lehner 1940 internal rotor motor for the Michael Ramel. Michael has presented the drive at several major competitions and amazed the competition. The E-Factor is also a very light aerobatic aircraft. Unfortunately, Michael Ramel took the drive to Hacker and had it copied and manufactured there with Sebastiano Silverstri. Also one who is no better than punk.The Brenner contra drive has exactly the same gearing with the freely rotating, counter-rotating propellers, which adjust their speed depending on the power consumption. By using different reduction ratios, you can also increase the power distribution specifically for one of the propellers. The garden gnome from Dresden didn't understand that at all. Rene also knows very little about the aerodynamics of propellers. Where the punk lives, the residents voted yesterday to get a new leadership for that part of Germany. Thuringia has very many poor people. You voted for the Nazi party AFD. They are racists and what the people there voted for is very bad. It's very sad that people couldn't convince the stupid voters of a real democracy. But it is also the case that the people in this federal state want to stand out from the others; they have a very great need for recognition, say political scientists about the Thuringians.

Happy Amps Christian

Brenner is very sharp . and His V4 design is chic as you would say in Germany. His new direct drive coaxial concept is a beautiful thing mechanically.

Christian,
I don't mind feeding 100 pilots with better motors to break a speed record than a 5050 scorpion with its 5 dollar bearings and hot windings that burn up. Ill make more power be lighter and more efficient. If his speed is impressive to somebody in a backyard event it is nothing to the motors we can build for international competition with wide fields. I assure you I'm not phased or surprised at what goes on in Jurassic park.

Thats the extend of a defeat croco motor project for me wind a pyro 1000, my way and compliment it the Clugh way with right composite parts.....

A-Boy??

Truly Miniscule....

[Clugh]

NOVA 30 – Plettenberg (plettenbergmotors.com)

RC Hobby is fun and so is he to play with but In the real world building something to power like the Stark MX bike at $12,900 USD is what I'd rather focus time and effort in. I've been looking at a Plettenburg Nova an contemplating using a long stack of your 24 slot 125mm SPS core to power an older 900cc Honda.

Since I already have it . I really want to build and E bike on this platform with titanium race wheels showa suspension etc.



I think you built a motor on endless sphere. What I want to do is develop an ultra HV SiC based drive with Talega at the heart. I'd wrap hybrid with square copper.

Now that the shop is coming together let build something real and let the old fart fly his hot motors in his goofy planes with his cronies..

[Clugh]

We are taking about machines larger than 24Kw continuous to power this now not forest fires in the nose on DZ's planes!

[Clugh]

See how pathetic a 7455 is at 24kW its nothing but heat.

Here in the plettenburg is 55Nm for the 24kW not 5.62....

NOVA 15 – Plettenberg (plettenbergmotors.com)

[Clugh]

Now they wanna follow the leader into the world of winding motors like cobra instead of that expensive reactive power with no torque garbage.

Joker 5060 tuning test as a cheap alternative to overpriced brands | RC-Network.de

LOL.

• esterday at 15:44

• #3

Yes, that's how we started.
The drive stators were even cheaper, they didn't cost anything.
And you could make a lot out of the old printer motors.
In terms of winding, much less than such a Schmiddie extreme winding is enough to bring about a noticeable improvement.

Examples: powerditto 9N Motors
powerditto 12N Motors

They all ran to the full satisfaction of their owners.
Winding tuning is just the most effective variant.
Most of the other things about the expensive engines are mostly "nice to have".


I'll quote myself from the introduction of the website:

However, all the ways shown here can also be used in principle to really exploit the good mechanical and electrical basis of many offered ready-made motors in the lower and middle price range by means of a "winding tuning", since usually the greatest savings (greatly increased effort in manual work) are made at this point for commercial reasons.
You certainly can't save money when doing it yourself and so the joy and pride in self-built things should come more to the fore.

Btw.: on the country road a Ferrari is only allowed to drive 100 - if it has the space for it - like the FIAT 500 and the Rolex etc. on the driver's wrist also only shows the time like a 5€ watch.




VG Ralph


Ralph, der kleine arische Junge aus Dresden, weiß nichts über die schönen Dinge des Lebens. Er denkt, eine 5-Dollar-Uhr geht die Zeit wie eine Rolex. 😅 Und ein Geschwindigkeitswettbewerb ist eine lange, kurvenreiche Landstraße. Schreckliche Analogien!!! Offensichtlich hat dieser Mann nie eine Rolex oder einen Ferrari besessen, Chris. Alte, ramponierte BMW-Kombis sind sein Stil... Er spricht auf einer Rolex, also weiß ich, dass er nichts über eine IWC-Portugieser weiß. Dieser Mann steckt mit seinen alten reaktiven Vergasern in einer Welt fest, die grün wird. Ein Narr, der aus seiner uninformierten Kehle über schöne Dinge spricht, die er nie besessen haben muss. Eine Rolex tickt nicht wie eine 5-Dollar-Armbanduhr. Dieser Mann ist ein echter Narr. Eine 5-Dollar-Armbanduhr verliert jeden Tag ihre Zeit.

Wie Ihre Motoren werden sie mit der Zeit nur schlechter.


By the recorded constants you know what the Align did in the calculators versus your high idle current LRK DD!

We also know that a COTS Leopard outrunner consumed less battery than the finest wound scorpions in Germany!

But they don't report that on the American forums....



YT
Hubert

[Clugh]

The post translated. For 4 times as much the scorpion gave 1% efficiency over the Joker that cost 80 dollars..... LOL!! I hope Croco world enjoys the news.
Poor DZHAMEL!!!!



"Hi everyone!
After the last price increase of Scorpion (you could think the new owner also wants to fly to Mars), I wondered if other mothers don't also have beautiful daughters and wanted to test their qualities.

Since the 6s Andi always raves about his Joker engines, I once ordered a 5060-5.5, they are produced by Dualsky very cheaply for Lindinger.
For 82€ including shipping at Galaxus, the risk was manageable, a comparable Scorpion S2-4030 would cost 4 TIMES AS MUCH i.e. 329€ because it is between the S2-4025 for 319€ and the S2-4035 for 339€.
I have already wound this series a dozen times in all 3 variants and with all possible windings and therefore very good comparative data.

If you get something for a quarter of the price, you fear quite scrap, but the opposite was the case.
The workmanship is at least on the level of Scorpion, 4030 stator with 0.2mm sheets, 0.4mm air gap and double bell bearings, but no curved magnets, which you obviously don't need either.
Sorry I don't have a photo of the original winding because it was removed so quickly, but it was done as well as possible, with 504 rpm at 24°.

Although I didn't bother to remove the stator insulation, I got a 12+12x 1.12 DD with 460U/V at 24° and thus 55% more copper in.
Thus, the power handling increased from 90A to 140A at 6s, i.e. a good 3kW, with which a Fiala E3 18x10 or 17x12 is rotated with 8200U.
The syncloss is 160A and thus just below 165A for the S2-4030 at the same spec. RPM, the Scorpion needs 7% fewer turns, but also has less winding space.

The efficiency of the Joker is about 1% lower than that of the Scorpion, as far as you can tell from the speed stiffness, but I'm happy to accept that, because these marginal differences don't justify 4 times the price.
Thus, the Joker lives up to its name and I save a lot of money in the future." Appendixes

• 
  IMG_3161.jpg
  621.6 KB · Views: 50
• 
  IMG_3150.jpg
  371.7 KB · Views: 48

[Clugh]

The other funny thing is crocoworld says a single layer with two levels cant cool as good as a dual layer with single level coils then wind this dual layer with a second level on every tooth.

And then glorify it because it came from them.

NONSENSE!!! as you can see the goalpost change!!

Like I said windings on 2 levels don't hurt anything. Proof positive confirmed in croco world

[Clugh]

Off the shelf this is not a Joker....😄the 12 arm stator 14 pole rotor Cobra's efficiency is already noticeably higher than a scorpion before rewinding. Its definitely going to run cooler. Thats obvious at a glance. The Powercroco Scorpion Knocker, originally made for a helicopter, is a bunch of heavy inadequate axial cooling nonsense at a extremely high TIR. Put that hacked spinner on an TIR indicator and watch out! You can see its machining is skewed just by looking at it.



What an expensive vibrator! I assume it's better than a thumb. Not my lane so I dunno.

[Clugh]

Hi Chris
Did you look at the Stark Varg MX. Its MUCH stronger than the best 500CC EFI 2 strokes in the world for 12,900.00 USD 56kW! Crisco!

[Clugh]

Trust me . By throwing out cliche Rolex reference . Just like motors .... let's me know he doesn't know anything about real watches Chris.

The man doesn't know what time it is.... with his 5 dollar watch. He will be late or early everywhere.

Ralph!
learn what a real watch is and its value. Get beyond general knowledge children know you poor soul.

This man doesn't know how to use a tachymeter to measure the planes speed without a trap on a true chronograph Christian....

His understanding of even watches is very basic as you can see from his post about them. He probably thinks the dial around the bezel is decoration...


Hubert

[Clugh]

He doesn't understand this or something like A PATEK or anything like that Chris. Bavarians such as yourself live a little more refined. Its pure ignorance is all that is. He really doesn't know any better Crisco. He loves 5 dollar things apparently. Ie. dollar tree watches, ball bearings, and low eta.....😏

[Chxpress]

Hi Hubert,
Jurasic Park Punk also doesn't need any devices to measure relevant data. He doesn't know what to do with it anyway. Why and why you make certain settings on the controller in order to achieve optimal results with the motor. They definitely don't understand a wristwatch with lots of complications. You don't even notice that you aren't making any progress. Fly their uniformity and pat themselves on the back, how boring.

Happy Amps Christian

[Clugh]

That finalizes what I have to say about the Amateur from Dresden. I certainly don't need anything from Power Croco to improve the performance of a model, land ,sea, or air. 🙄

Nice meter BTW.

Enjoy the Stark videos that are out there.

TTYL
Hubert

[Clugh]

The type of magnets a motor needs is also important for power matching with respect to the inverter. If you are running a sinus inverter then quite naturally a pm shape that promotes a sinus bemf is optimal. If you are running a dc 6 step drive then you want a spoke type pm arrangement that generates a true trapezoidal wave form with corners as sharp as possible. 1% eta isn't such a big deal but 2 or 3 becomes significant. Every 2+ truly counts I feel safe to say. Also the ripple from system mismatch will rob static torque output. From todays best. The Phd's only search for about 3% to have true unity.

Dr Hendershot wants a material with a negative permeability.


The speed stiff ness idea is an interesting one because the power supply itself and or bulk electrolytics or super lithium's can affect that significantly on identical motors. Caps will bring punch or more stout delivery to the motor and its job every time. Some one that claims to know audio should know this already.

I never saw this speed stiffness idea in any academic literature. Can you show me such academia?

Thanks for your time and patience,
Hubert

[Clugh]

Maybe they mean slip free load rpm versus loaded rpm. But actually torque generation in a IPM squirrel cage machine for instance is increased as the slip is increase because the slip will increase torque arm moment and the amperage draw will increase. The efficiency, winding factor, and power factor of the machine will determine from there how much of that is real versus reactive power. The winding topology and machine geometry determine optimizations in all things that affect.

What conclusions do you come to about a BLDC or BLAC with regards to slip Christian?

[Clugh]

Christian,
Is it not true that if the motor can pull its freeload amperage on a load then it is not adequately loaded at all and doesn't make any power at idle currents??? but isnt that the same thing as "100 % speed stiff" by their standards

Do you see it is just like the boat prop slip with a tug boat versus a speed boat.

zero slip u would think is fastest but it mean no thrust. Tugs have a lot of slip alot of thrust but no speed.

Do you remember our discussion where you schooled me about that?

Its the same thing. You need slip in the motor to generate the torque.

Hubert.

[Clugh]

To me the stiffness idea in their regard doesn't equate to much about better efficiency because the motor that is spinning the load slower if the draw is reasonable can have maybe a turn less and larger conductor to reach the same speed as "Stiffer motor" which would actually be an advantage would it not? Its pretty interesting to think about....

[Chxpress]

Hi Hubert,
yes, that's how engineers think. two examples: Lehner has the inner rotors with air gap coils. These engines have extreme speed rigidity. This makes it very difficult to use the motors correctly. We know this and give corresponding recommendations to the model makers who use them in racing boats. A propeller that ticks too big, too much blade area, etc. It can put such a strain on the motor that the currents rise to extremes and overwhelm the controller and batteries. You need very good controllers that also allow partial load operation in order to increase the speed in a controlled manner. The Plettenberg F5B engines were quite the opposite, having less speed rigidity but a large usable speed range. As Aloys correctly described it, these engines still gain speed and still have speed reserves when others cannot increase the speed and stall. As you write, an asynchronous motor drags the rotor along to induce magnetic fields. Without the slip they wouldn't work. But this doesn't necessarily have disadvantages; they can also change the speed depending on the load and achieve high levels of efficiency. Permanent magnets can be weakened or strengthened with coils or even replaced entirely with coils that are electrically excited. The MagnetMotor motors can not only be operated until the iron is saturated but can also further increase torque with saturated iron. To this day, no one out there has understood that. You can also design the motors in such a way that part of the coil extends beyond the stator tooth and works as an air coil from the start. Almost half/half an engine. Half with iron tooth / half with air coil. But the hammerhead sheet metal cuts cannot provide this; they are limited and do not have the magnet system that is necessary for this. We're now slowly opening the box and showing what's still possible. You got it, punk never did.

Happy Amps Christian

[Clugh]

Chris the reason my 93 CBR 900RR fireblade will work is because it is still a a modern day weight at 450 pounds. Only 7 pounds more than the 2025 1000cc fire blade. The rolling chassis is light. I think you need at least 80kW to power the machine properly. 100kW would be even better. It is a very easy SuperSport bike to throw around in the corners etc. It handles really well. Does Lehner offered anything in this size and what length would your 125mm stack need to be to work at 80 - 100 kW? Zubax want me to help them produce a Talega based drive for tru EV. It clearly would be more lucrative than supplying 20 people 50mm machines for a back yard event.

The Neu 180 is 80000 watts at 8,000 rpm.