Alternative motor windings and drive schemes

[Clugh]

See how crazy some of the posts are. The poster posts that the boat courses are shorter in SAW competitions, so they can reach crazy numbers, but the numbers given are from a dyne meter, not a boat. How long does he believe that an aircraft is in the traps at 166 m/s? You see, that's just nonsense. In 10 seconds, the plane has covered 1660 meters! Much longer and the plane is out of sight! These guys have no idea what reality is, and I've never been to these stupid events. That's what I want to say: Chris, simple mathematics is foreign to the troops. The airplanes aren't drawing boat currents of 1000 amperes so what the hell is he talking about....

I don't have time, Chris. Stop wasting yours.

Thank you,
Hubert

[Chxpress]

Hi Hubert,
your answer in#1917 to Ralf was exelent. This show how it is and they ever ignore. If one of them will be a real record fighter pilot , there is no way not to use this Lehner Motor. Similar with Steve Neu Motors or Castle Motors . They all top the powercrocodrive easy.

Happy Amps Christian

[Clugh]

Hi Hubert,
your answer in#1917 to Ralf was exelent. This show how it is and they ever ignore. If one of them will be a real record fighter pilot , there is no way not to use this Lehner Motot . Similar with Steve Neu Motors or Castle Motors . They all top the powercrocodrive easy.

Happy Amps Christian

You have a PM.

[Clugh]

Nevertheless.
You work with sensors, warning thresholds and log along when you try something new - at least until it's clear that the respective setup fits together. And you read the lie too and draw conclusions from it.

For example, if I had seen a log after the first act of the last disaster, I would have known that I would have had to dig deeper.
So I tested 1000V, no-load current and speed with a new bell as usual and found it all okay.
I couldn't notice that the mistake was somewhere else.
That's why the same thing happened again.
This would not have happened with full load measurement and log.

If you have new security features, like telemetry, you have to use them when you try something borderline.
Better: not only to use it, but also to evaluate it and at least try to understand what's going on.

In the past, when I was still on site myself and flew myself, I was sometimes able to prevent worse because I could slow down the pilot with completely nonsensical stories.

Nowadays they just do that and then burn down either the motor or the actuator and in most cases you don't even get to see a log about it.
This damages the reputation of both (actuator and motor) and if someone has to pursue commercial interests, it may have really bad consequences.

That's why data sheets are rather conservative, because if you stay within these specifications, you won't win a cup, but nothing dramatic happens.

With this in mind, I hope that Alex's experiment goes well.
He's been around long enough to know everything written here and cool enough to take it to heart.
As is well known, further development has not actually taken place since 2019 - mainly due to a lack of input and, of course, also because I no longer play along myself, but only build what has been tried and tested for years.
It's time for someone to be found who will continue seriously!

It will stay the same as I wrote before: I will continue to build the old stuff until someone has something better. No matter if Alex, Schmiddie or anyone else.
~powercroco~

But Ralph, you're one of the pilot who didn't use telemetry or even know how so Is it the modelers' fault now that you promised them they could get to 600 with your engine and it fails so it's their fault? The only person who tried to ruin YGE's reputation was yourself, Ralph. What are you talking about, madman? Their reputation isn't ruined because no one with any common sense ever suspected them. We knew from the beginning that your engines were the problem. They always replace an old lie with a new one. The engines are overloaded, so let it go before you manage to get Merian back. Nobody believes you except a clan of 20 people. Keep winding it and remain at you current speed ceilings.

There are several winders that already wind better machines. Just ask the real Brenner on helifreaks.

You told them previously you hated SMART inverters now your expert advice is they didn't utilize the feature on one it is why they failed but you said first that YGE didn't know how its own inverter worked.

The YGE suggestion which has not been retracted was the engine needed to be larger or the prop needed less pitch or diameter... Your little friends forget quick what they just read 2 days ago.

You didn't give a damn about YGE's reputation b4 Merian showed up all you cared about is the circuit breaker engines you wrap.

Hubert

[Clugh]

And I test every motor under a reasonable load before it goes out the door. So that's a step that should have been implemented from the start. And then what about the 5 dollar bearing you use that rob rpm and raise the idle currents as much as an amp on a small 36mm can.?

[Clugh]

Du hattest Zugang zu vielen Protokollen, die du gezeigt hast, und hast immer die Wechselrichter dafür verantwortlich gemacht. Du hast eine ganze Rede darüber in RC-Gruppen gehalten. Steve Neu und ich haben dir damals gesagt, dass du falsch lagst. Du hast behauptet, es sei nicht gesättigt. Erinnerst du dich nicht an Christian?

[Clugh]

Is there Anyone Who Can Rewind my Motor - HeliFreak

They wont tell the man where he can find me to wind his 4225 but they are all here sucking up every ounce of info I drop! I help all these people but they dont help me.

I know you dont want the heli pilot to fly my motor.

Time to go home
Bye Bye

[Clugh]

Nov 09, 2023, 01:24 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by sneu APD controllers will protect themselves from effects of saturating the stator motor iron by throttling back as well as limiting on BOTH the bus and phase current---check the controller log files and I bet you will see a mismatch between the bus current and phase current. Depending on the firmware version you have in the controller it should flag the events in the graphs. If you are seeing "desaturation" flags the options are to reduce the load or increase the mass of steel in the motor ---a "stronger and stupid" controller will burn rather than protect its self---and your wallet APD will be updating their controllers in the coming year with additional protections ---as they target their controllers at higher value markets. Yes, you are right in this. Also the newer YGE controllers go this way - good for the normal customers, bad for us and our crazy games! My old 5040 motor has seen the 400A with my 2017th YGE 400 prototype, so the 5050 cannot have been saturated with the same amps - it has 20% more iron and magnets too. btw. also Dzhamals motor has already seen the 400A with his first APD some years ago - with a special (not serial) software, he personally got from them. Images View all Images in thread Views: 25

Last edited by powercroco; Nov 11, 2023 at 11:32 AM.

[Clugh]

Now Ralph if what is left isnt contradictory enough what did u edit out an entire 2 months later while no one was looking....???

Your motors not running at the border and APD was the problem is what you said

The software also isnt "hot" it was a degrade back to older firmware. That's called a degrade sir.

Thx Doc
Hubert

[Clugh]

Nov 09, 2023, 03:46 AM #284
powercroco Registered User	My opinion about this: The main problem with this ESC software seems to be, that is not able to deliver 400A continous but only 400A peak. At 400A peak the real Amps seem to be only about 350Amps. This causes, that the ESC work in high power partload, and this causes this very high temperature by switching losses. And it also causes the loss of about 850rpm compared with ESC without this "regulation". These aubout 5% will give you almost 5% less speed, means, with a full open ESC. This means, you will get only 577km/h instead of the possible 605km/h with the setup. of course also the weather conditions have to fit. The seen 74% relative humidity at 23°C mean 9g/m² water in air. For really fast speeds we found, that someone needs condition with les than 6g/m³ air! When the conditions are really optimal, someone can see results just like the 640km/h by Stan and the 623km/h by Tim and also the 353 km/h by a helicopter for the 200m measuring distance. We had these conditions only once in time in our competitions and only for les than 30min. So actually Kai's both sides 587km/h in the 300m long WR -measuring distance with jugdes and profen by the high speed camera systems is still the fastest flight ever! anyway, the main problem is the ESC with it's high sofisticated software. This is not needed for speed use. Optimal ESC for speeding must be better stupid and strong. And the main factor for highest speeds is still the well trained and super talented pilot!
	Last edited by powercroco; Nov 09, 2023 at 12:52 PM.

[Clugh]

u came back 8 hours later and edited more out

[Clugh]

• Wednesday at 13:46

• #819

Powercroco wrote:
So you only noticed/were reported that something was going wrong when it was actually already too late.

The model came down intact, the controller remained intact.
I'll leave the fact that the engine, which was already defective at that moment, may have broken down even more.
I don't want to judge that. But that's not the task of the controller either.
From my point of view, nothing was too late here.
The pilot could also have programmed a warning. But he didn't.

The aim of our controllers is to maintain operation for as long and as well as possible without shutting down or regulating it.
And he has done that here with flying colors.

With Synclost, reduce detection to 80%. With the helicopter, which is already at 80% anyway? Or to 50%, where some models are no longer flyable?
Or switch off bluntly? Not only unpleasant with the helicopter, also with an Acro model 1m above the ground when torqueing stupid.
And these are only a few scenarios.
Apart from that, there are motors that are always close to having synclost here and there. Example 28-pole dualsky. It happens several times in flight that the controller limits for a short time, especially if you overdo it with the acceleration again. So that it can go on unnoticed. Reducing every time to e.g. fixed 70% does not make sense here.
Even in my 16S helicopter it sometimes intervenes minimally when I pitch too quickly. I don't notice anything about it in flight. That's OK too.
It would be annoying if he then regulates to 70% and I can forget about the scoring flight.
A warning via telemetry would be useful, but not feasible with every telemetry system. It would also spread panic unnecessarily.
You could create an extra mode, especially for speed flyers, where you can adjust something like that. But that brings us back to the topic.
The effort for currently 1 or 2 pilots who use the ESC at all in the speed area?
You can see that it's not all that easy when you think outside the box.

Powercroco wrote:
From now on "run through loop" until the magnets are completely cooked or the winding is so dead that the helicopter can just keep itself in the air.

As I said, he was able to land safely and cleanly, without stress.
The way you describe it, he should have kept limiting, ultimately to a standstill.
A look at the log, which you have probably also seen, shows that the controller has cooled down again during this time and the PWM has not been limited any further. Which means that it didn't get worse for the engine either...
You can just read all that out of it.
In the helicopter it is just like this, if the governor no longer readjusts (because e.g. the synclost prevention is limited), then there is no longer a great torque. So the current doesn't rise much anymore.

But now...

Greetings
Marian

[Clugh]

• Wednesday at 16:23

• #820

After Marian has thankfully once again clearly worked out that from the point of view of the actuator producer, it doesn't matter at all (****) whether the engine gets a survival chace and the (economic) effort for the currently 1-2 speed wing speeders with YGE 255 is inappropriate anyway, and it is only important that the actuator survives unscathed, even he should be aware that I feel the same way!
Exactly with these statements - but thrown into the ring from my side - btw. the dispute started 2 pages ago.

No, I don't want to see my lovingly, elaborately and passionately built individual pieces die such a senseless death!
I have no business interests in this, so that as many sleeved engines as possible would bring me something.
I even rebuild "lumps of coal" for fairly small animal shelter donations to save them if at all possible.
I also have absolutely no desire to explain to the affected user that he is to blame for every engine defect that has come about in this way - he wouldn't believe that anyway.

So I have to reaffirm my warning against using this regulator together with my motors in the maximum load range to protect my motors from this scenario.

What is right for one person should also be cheap for another!

And once again, primarily economic = financial interests and egoisms - I see myself just as affected by the latter - have completely destroyed a long-standing, at times quite intensive cooperation.
But that's the way it is today.




VG Ralph

[Clugh]

• Wednesday at 16:41

• #821

Pretty much everything is wrong with that.
The motor was already broken and then the regulator limited. And by limiting the motor does not break down even further. And even if it did, that would still be better than if the controller and the model were also destroyed.

But well, we're going round in circles. People should read and make up their own minds.

Powercroco wrote:
After Marian has thankfully worked out again clearly that from the point of view of the actuator manufacturer it doesn't matter at all (****) whether the engine gets a survival chace and the (economic) effort for the currently 1-2 speed area speeders with YGE 255 is unreasonable anyway,

Please don't twist facts! It was all about the development of a special mode for speed flyers. And there seems to be no interest for there, because those who use the controller are also at peace this way. With your engines. And they didn't break

~marian yge~



Powercroco

User

• Wednesday at 16:47

• #822

yes, I forgot
to write "implementation of a special mode", so far my fault.
In other words:

After Marian has thankfully worked out clearly that from the point of view of the actuator manufacturer it doesn't matter at all (****) whether the engine gets a survival chace and the (economic) effort of implementing a special mode for the currently 1-2 speed area speeders with YGE 255 is inappropriate anyway,

the brand new motor was already broken ... Is it still possible?

Whether I warn or not is purely my business.
What the user wants to make of it is indeed up to each of them.
But this problem will no longer exist in the future anyway.

I think the thread can be closed.




VG Ralph

[Clugh]

• Wednesday at 16:58

• #823

Powercroco wrote:
The brand new engine was already broken ... Is it still possible?

Of course, not when he was new! It had already broken down, in this flight or in the flight before, at full power!
Until the regulator no longer allowed it.
Please just take a look at the logs.

Phew... Please close the thread.


~Marian YGE~

[Clugh]

MottaMotta

User

• 12. November 2024

• #812

Marian-YGE wrote:
I know that, and we appreciate it! It is precisely because of this lack of hearing that such protective mechanisms have to be in place.
And this is not only related to the speed scene.

Correct!
The 255 refers to continuous full throttle with good cooling.
For a short time, the Opto can handle 255 to 400A, so you can open the current limit up to max. 400A.
How long it can do this depends on external conditions such as cooling conditions, outside temperature, etc.

I don't think it's a secret anymore that the controllers at that time, as well as with today's batteries, do not make 160A, 320A or 400A duration.

The thermal behavior cannot be compared either, because, as described above, the temperature sensor is in an unfavorable position, and the whole thing is manipulated by the missing shrink tube.
Thus, the regulator becomes permanently too hot, which explains the frequent failures.

And that's just something that is often swept under the table.
It is always said that the old 160s and 320s are so great. They went through it all.
If you're honest, they just don't. I can see what I have to take back from Ballenstedt to the service every time.

And that's exactly what manufacturers actually want to avoid.
Even if most speed pilots probably don't care if it breaks down after 30 or 50 flights.
For us, every defective regulator is reputationally damaging.

And you can say as often as you like that it is a custom-made product or a prototype in the first stage.
See the Opto 405 prototype in Ballenstedt.
In the end, it could be seen worldwide on Facebook, and it wasn't even published by the pilot himself.

This is one of the reasons why the project is currently on hold again...

In summary, in order to be able to do what is called up permanently, a 160/320HV would also have to be thermally much better, and thus also larger and heavier.


Greetings
Marian
Click to enlarge....

How can it be that an APD400 HV with 220gr and closed aluminum cooler 320-330A continuous current at 16s without overheating until 5100 speed cells were empty? It took a few mails (with APD support) until we had the APD400 so far that it did not limit but after that there was not a single failure, for overtemp, syncloss, squeaking or the like.

[Clugh]

Yeah powercroco is truly credible!!!


YT
Hubert

[Clugh]

lets read this again Ralph about you YGE 400

Quote:

Originally Posted by sneu APD controllers will protect themselves from effects of saturating the stator motor iron by throttling back as well as limiting on BOTH the bus and phase current---check the controller log files and I bet you will see a mismatch between the bus current and phase current. Depending on the firmware version you have in the controller it should flag the events in the graphs. If you are seeing "desaturation" flags the options are to reduce the load or increase the mass of steel in the motor ---a "stronger and stupid" controller will burn rather than protect its self---and your wallet APD will be updating their controllers in the coming year with additional protections ---as they target their controllers at higher value markets.

Yes, you are right in this.
Also the newer YGE controllers go this way - good for the normal customers, bad for us and our crazy games!

My old 5040 motor has seen the 400A with my 2017th YGE 400 prototype, so the 5050 cannot have been saturated with the same amps - it has 20% more iron and magnets too.

btw. also Dzhamals motor has already seen the 400A with his first APD some years ago - with a special (not serial) software, he personally got from them. Images

[Clugh]

Powercroco

User

• 11 October 2024

• #728

Unfortunately, my beloved YGE400 UHV gave up the ghost last night after more than 10 years of loyal service.
And not even in a high-current test, but at idle on 6S.

Let's see if Heino can fix something again. He has already agreed to take a look at the part benevolently - somehow this prototype is also a part of his company history.

With the new 255, which has also been mounted on my test bench for some time, I somehow don't really warm up - to run to the composter every time I do programming and especially this syncloss protection stuff is just not mine.

If the 400 can no longer be straightened, it would be a good point to nail the part to my "loss wall" and join the general trend of throwing the model engine stuff into the proverbial corner and only taking care of the industrial stuff.

Let's see what Heino finds out......

Last edited: October 11, 2024

VG Ralph

[Clugh]

My old 5040 motor has seen the 400A with my 2017th YGE 400 prototype, so the 5050 cannot have been saturated with the same amps - it has 20% more iron and magnets too.

btw. also Dzhamals motor has already seen the 400A with his first APD some years ago - with a special (not serial) software, he personally got from them. Images

View all Images in thread

• Vie

How is the inverter 10 years old if it is a 2017 its only 2024.....