Alternative motor windings and drive schemes

[Clugh]

Der Antrieb von Christian Thomas verwendet einen HK3226 mit nur 1700 Watt COTS. Sie brauchen keinen 2260, um dorthin zu gelangen. Sie könnten wahrscheinlich den 2240 oder 2250 verwenden, aber warum montieren Sie nicht einfach Ihren 41er-Außenläufer, wenn er 44.000 drehen kann und Sie 1900 Kv haben? Lassen Sie sich von Jamaicaman nicht mit seinen Klasse-B-Knockers belästigen. Laut Ralph ist er kein guter Pilot, um ans echte Zeug zu kommen.


Da ein 1527 etwa 4500 Watt hat, würde er das auch problemlos schaffen. Aber wie Sie sagen, ist das höhere Verhältnis besser, also funktioniert der 6,7 1, aber Sie können einen 2240 oder 50 im 4-1 bei 44.000 bei Ihrer gewählten Spannung laden. Zu Beginn werde ich meinen mit einem besseren Außenläufer laden. Der Pyro 600 ist mechanisch besser als der HK und der Xnova hat eine bessere Kühlung. Der Xnova hat eine 5-mm-Welle, der Pyro hat eine 6-mm-Welle. Die Wellen sind viel kürzer als die Innenläufer. Das ist etwas, worüber man beim Wellenbau nachdenken sollte. Ermitteln Sie das für die Aufgabe erforderliche Drehmoment im Propellerrechner, ermitteln Sie dann das erforderliche Drehmoment und geben Sie dann in den Drehmomentrechner diese Zahl, die endgültige Drehzahl und die Anm ein, und die Motorleistung wird aufgezeichnet. Verwenden Sie einfach einen Wechselrichter mit genügend Biss. Sie können Steve kontaktieren, wenn Sie den XLX2 in der Wechselrichterdatenbank benötigen, oder kontaktieren Sie einfach Markus. Der Außenläufer mit hoher Polzahl hat bei Innenläufergeschwindigkeiten einen entscheidenden Nachteil gegenüber einem viel effizienteren Innenläufer mit weniger elektrischem und akustischem Lärm.

Die Mäuse trollen schon. Was wird Gerd sagen?

Viel Glück damit. Weißt du, nicht einmal die Ingenieure bei YGE können den Halbgott aus Dresden ohne Abschluss übertrumpfen. Kai und die anderen sind alle da hochgekrochen und planen, dort oben mit dem üblen Gestank zu bleiben. Apropos Boote, während Ralph die langsamsten mit denselben Motoren antreibt, die für ihren Verbrauch kein Drehmoment erzeugen. Baue ein Flugzeug und sponsere es. Ich schätze, Steve Neu, der hier mehrere Weltrekorde im Bootfahren hält, hat die F5B-Szene mit einem „Bootsmotor ...“? dominiert. Ja, dein Motor mag schwerer sein, aber er ist viel effizienter und leistungsstärker. Gewicht zu PS ist das Verhältnis, nicht nur das Gewicht des Antriebs. Die Mäuse sind Idioten.


Hubert

Bernard 320.

[Clugh]

Marian hat meine E-Mail bekommen, Ralph! Ich bin auf dem Laufenden, besonders über deinen Rückzieher, und habe ihm deine ehrlichen Worte von meinem professionellen Stuhl geschickt. Hast du gesagt, die Techniker wüssten nicht, warum, und dann einfach dieselbe Erklärung abgegeben, die er vorher gegeben hat? Dein Motor ist für die Aufgabe zu schwach...

[Clugh]

So lets post his response in English for the boys and ill highlight a few points.
Good morning everyone,

Armageddon wrote:
With this statement, however, I think that you are making the "old" controllers worse than they are. The log of almost 40s with 300-330A from my FAI setup is known to you or in other words: The 320 can handle the currents in the long run, at least for the duration of a 5100 battery. I had regularly loaded the 160 with 230A "continuous" until sometimes the temp shutdown came. I can't remember ever breaking a regulator of yours due to overload. The parts died in my case either by impact or, as in April with a 160, by unplugging a phase at full load.

First of all, thank you, Kai! :-)
I don't want to badmouth the old controllers. My statement refers to the 160/320HV in delivery condition, i.e. unprocessed. My point is that some of them are highly praised here and are presented as "indestructible". And that's not how it is. And that's the best way for me to judge, because everything that breaks ultimately collects on my table. And that's because they get overloaded and/or regularly get synclosts.
Of course, you can minimize this by taking it slowly. I think that's a good thing and it's exactly the approach we want. Unfortunately, very few people do that.
The fact is, if you leave the regulator unprocessed, so no copper strips on it, shrink tubing stays on, then it can't do what you have logged.
If you make the shrink tube down, it may work, but the question is how often. This can also work well in the long run. However, our experience has shown that the service life suffers very badly, for the reasons described in my previous answer.
This is something that we can no longer offer to the masses, where there are experienced people, but also absolute beginners, and that in all different areas of application.

MottaMotta wrote:
How can it be that an APD400 HV with 220gr and closed aluminum cooler 320-330A continuous current at 16s without overheating until 5100 speed cells were empty? It took a few mails (with APD support) until we had the APD400 so far that it did not limit but after that there was not a single failure, for overtemp, syncloss, squeaking or the like.

Of course, this can work if you develop and design a controller solely on it.
But that is not our goal. See my first post.

Rennsemmel wrote:
The questions that arise to me (as an outsider) are:
- What would have burned off without the protection when syncloss occurred
- Why the partial load alone should be able to generate so much heat in the motor that the magnets break.
This has actually always been more of a controller problem.

- What can happen with synclost. In 9 out of 10 cases, it squeaks. In the worst case, something breaks. Other higher-priced controllers also have protection mechanisms, but then switch off hard.
- Partial load is also flown in the helicopter.

Powercroco wrote:
Marian, then also communicate quite clearly that the use of these controls at the limit without the use of telemetry cannot be recommended, because otherwise the controller can no longer give the user any indication of what is happening!
If errors are no longer reported directly to the user ("Heinolied" and / or clearly noticeable (!) back-rules) and only a readout on the computer (telemetry is nothing else) is necessary to recognize that there was something wrong with the setup, I can't recognize a profit.

Telemetry should be used when you are at the limit. This is nothing new and has been state of the art for many years now. I don't think you have to point it out explicitly. Anyone who resists this should not be surprised if he does not find the optimum.
Even my over 10-year-old Futaba T14SG, which I still use here and after, can do this and shows me all data, including throttle preselection and PWM separately during the flight.
You don't have to connect it to the computer for this. But it makes sense to take a look here from time to time. Kai has described it nicely how this can be realized directly in the station.

Powercroco wrote:
Nobody knows exactly what was going on.
Maybe it was something else.
But the only thing that had changed was the actuator.
Several of these motors (5025) with the same winding can be used with "other controllers" without any problems.
And with a new bell, exactly this winding runs without any problems.
As she also made 2-3 flights with a replacement bell without any problems.
Then she was over again just like the first.
Of course, I took back the broken engine 2x, that's a question of honor.


No fault was found on the controller during an inspection.
Click to enlarge....

We talked about it for a long time on the phone.
What has also changed is that the engines are otherwise used in wings (continuous full throttle).
Here it was a heli application. This means a completely different current course and partial load.
A component that should not be ignored.
In addition, the engine sits in the front of the fresh air in the full air flow.
In the helicopter, the engine is stuck in the back of the CFRP fuselage and sweats.

By the way, we also replaced the ESC free of charge with the first motor defect, ALTHOUGH it was 100% okay after our inspection.
With the second motor defect, the ESC was also completely intact again. He did not open any further because he could no longer guarantee safe operation due to the weak magnets. Exactly the same behavior as with the first engine.
And that's exactly what it is. A regulator without this protective function would probably have broken here. A cosmic would probably have switched off hard.
Here the controller has protected itself. The pilot noticed in flight that he had no power and landed.
I was able to tell him roughly what was going on by a short reading on the spot. After checking the logs, all solder joints and plugs, it could only be the motor. And that's how it was.
If the regulator had switched off or turned it down, a crash of the helicopter would have been likely.
I think it is very unlikely that the engine broke down due to this limitation.
It was the other way around, the regulator limited because the motor broke. Otherwise, the controller would have limited in the first flights.

My personal guess, but I can also be wrong with that.
The motor was undersized for the application (heli). Put a 5030 in there, and it will work. The way I followed it, that's exactly the plan. I think that's good and I'm looking forward to the result!
I had exactly the same problem in my 10S helicopter. There was an Xnova 4530 in it. after a few flights I had no more power.
The regulator no longer opened fully. Looked in, the winding was black.
This season I went on a 4530 and everything is good.

On the subject of partial load, in the appendix a log from my 16S helicopter, with the Opto 255.
You can see that you are always somewhere between 80 and 100% PWM.
100% only in absolute load peaks. In the last overflight, of course, a little more often.
The maximum temperature was 72°C, with an outside temperature of 27°C.
I would say that no other controller in the class can do that at the moment.

But that's it from me for now.
I think from a YGE point of view, everything has been said, and I hope you understand our point of view.
If you have any questions, I or Heino are of course always available by phone or email.


Greetings
Marian


Appendixes

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[Clugh]

3% eta is two fold power so let Thomas live like that...

[Clugh]

Boho1
Member
Last Activity: Today, 07:35 AM
Joined: Sep 13, 2023
Location

With the broken XNova, I would love to hold the Teslameter on the magnets......

Last edited: 17 minutes ago

VG Ralph



Then do it because no matter the results its still your wind and setup thus your mess.

Don't be mad at Marian because you motor runs into demag. You also lack capacitance on the brick! for the last time. APD also has MLCC's those catch the transients faster than bulk electrolytics. As fas as the PWM u don't want to know the answer because i asked you have you had a discussion about you quadrature and direct axis inductance with the engineers there to tune the drive accordingly.because yiou cant does not mean they can't but they would need those parameters. . Stiffen the supply and soften the ramp. You should be ashamed of yourself for saying they do not know their own inverters.



Thanks for dropping in
Hubert

[Clugh]

It' its funny because a good rule of thumb is about 20 uf per amp so you need about 8000uf to do what you want to do. How much is built into the inverter Ralph? Think brother....module 9 from yge is only 3510uf . U can easily make this capacitance in a small form factor with hybrid caps. At 8 slipo 2 of these ii parallel will get you there and 4 in a series parallel is 70 volts @ 9400uf and 35.4 grams.

[Clugh]

Powercroco

User

• Today at 13:09

• #818

So you only noticed/were reported that something was going wrong when it was actually already too late.

Okay, apparently everyone except me uses telemetry today and can and will immediately interpret (in the taking place) what is reported to him and will logically draw the right conclusions.

The motor (which is too weak for the level of performance that is simply required) (was of course my very first helicopter motor) does not make it.
The controller notices this and goes down a little bit in the PWM, just enough for the motor to report back correctly.
The motor, which is still overloaded by the overheated magnets (or winding), slowly dies a bit further and the magnets lose more power or the winding becomes a bit blacker. In any case, it does not report back correctly and the controller goes back a tiny bit in the PWM.

From now on "run through loop" until the magnets are completely cooked or the winding is so dead that the helicopter can just keep itself in the air.

This did not harm the winding of the 5025 in question, which was sufficiently (over)sized, so it is still in top condition afterwards and is completely unimpressed.

Yes, the regulator has protected itself and is still whole.
Great.

Imo this is a (preventable) cascade event, a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Because after only 2-3 seconds it is clear that there must be a victim.
Who is to blame for the disaster in the end?
Of course, everyone will evaluate this from their point of view, as you can see here in the course of the story.
Sure, the main culprit is the user, who simply (unfulfillable) wanted too much.

So logically a larger engine as a replacement for the then broken one is the only solution.

Apparently it is better to report to the user by reducing the speed to e.g. 80 or 70% immediately or after "X" seconds that something is wrong.
Because the helicopter would fall down right away....

With the broken XNova, I would love to hold the Teslameter on the magnets......

Last edited: Today at 13:19

VG Ralph

[Clugh]

• 51 minutes ago

• #819

Powercroco wrote:
So you only noticed/were reported that something was going wrong when it was actually already too late.

The model came down intact, the controller remained intact.
I'll leave the fact that the engine, which was already defective at that moment, may have broken down even more.
I don't want to judge that. But that's not the task of the controller either.
From my point of view, nothing was too late here.
The pilot could also have programmed a warning. But he didn't.

The aim of our controllers is to maintain operation for as long and as well as possible without shutting down or regulating it.
And he has done that here with flying colors.

With Synclost, reduce detection to 80%. With the helicopter, which is already at 80% anyway? Or to 50%, where some models are no longer flyable?
Or switch off bluntly? Not only unpleasant with the helicopter, also with an Acro model 1m above the ground when torqueing stupid.
And these are only a few scenarios.
Apart from that, there are motors that are always close to having synclost here and there. Example 28-pole dualsky. It happens several times in flight that the controller limits for a short time, especially if you overdo it with the acceleration again. So that it can go on unnoticed. Reducing every time to e.g. fixed 70% does not make sense here.
Even in my 16S helicopter it sometimes intervenes minimally when I pitch too quickly. I don't notice anything about it in flight. That's OK too.
It would be annoying if he then regulates to 70% and I can forget about the scoring flight.
A warning via telemetry would be useful, but not feasible with every telemetry system. It would also spread panic unnecessarily.
You could create an extra mode, especially for speed flyers, where you can adjust something like that. But that brings us back to the topic.
The effort for currently 1 or 2 pilots who use the ESC at all in the speed area?
You can see that it's not all that easy when you think outside the box.

Powercroco wrote:
From now on "run through loop" until the magnets are completely cooked or the winding is so dead that the helicopter can just keep itself in the air.

As I said, he was able to land safely and cleanly, without stress.
The way you describe it, he should have kept limiting, ultimately to a standstill.
A look at the log, which you have probably also seen, shows that the controller has cooled down again during this time and the PWM has not been limited any further. Which means that it didn't get worse for the engine either...
You can just read all that out of it.
In the helicopter it is just like this, if the governor no longer readjusts (because e.g. the synclost prevention is limited), then there is no longer a great torque. So the current doesn't rise much anymore.

But now...

Greetings

Marian-YGE

[Clugh]

It reads really well in English

Thanks for trying to throw the YGE engineers under the bus like everyone else but we caught you this time....

Christian can file it.

[Clugh]

Powercroco

User

• Today at 16:23

• #820

After Marian has thankfully once again clearly worked out that from the point of view of the actuator producer, it doesn't matter at all (****) whether the engine gets a survival chace and the (economic) effort for the currently 1-2 speed wing speeders with YGE 255 is inappropriate anyway, and it is only important that the actuator survives unscathed, even he should be aware that I feel the same way!
Exactly with these statements - but thrown into the ring from my side - btw. the dispute started 2 pages ago.

No, I don't want to see my lovingly, elaborately and passionately built individual pieces die such a senseless death!
I have no business interests in this, so that as many sleeved engines as possible would bring me something.
I even rebuild "lumps of coal" for fairly small animal shelter donations to save them if at all possible.
I also have absolutely no desire to explain to the affected user that he is to blame for every engine defect that has come about in this way - he wouldn't believe that anyway.

So I have to reaffirm my warning against using this regulator together with my motors in the maximum load range to protect my motors from this scenario.

What is right for one person should also be cheap for another!

And once again, primarily economic = financial interests and egoisms - I see myself just as affected by the latter - have completely destroyed a long-standing, at times quite intensive cooperation.
But that's the way it is today.
VG Ralph

[Clugh]

Marian-YGE

User

• Today at 16:41

• #821

Pretty much everything is wrong with that.
The motor was already broken and then the regulator limited. And by limiting the motor does not break down even further. And even if it did, that would still be better than if the controller and the model were also destroyed.

But well, we're going round in circles. People should read and make up their own minds.

Powercroco wrote:
After Marian has thankfully worked out again clearly that from the point of view of the actuator manufacturer it doesn't matter at all (****) whether the engine gets a survival chace and the (economic) effort for the currently 1-2 speed area speeders with YGE 255 is unreasonable anyway,

Please don't twist facts! It was all about the development of a special mode for speed flyers. And there seems to be no interest for there, because those who use the controller are also at peace this way. With your engines. And they didn't break

[Clugh]

Powercroco

User

• Today at 16:47

• #822

yes, I forgot
to write "implementation of a special mode", so far my fault.
In other words:

After Marian thankfully worked out clearly that from the point of view of the actuator manufacturer it doesn't matter at all (****) whether the engine gets a survival chace and the (economic) effort of implementing a special mode for the currently 1-2 speed area speeders with YGE 255 is inappropriate anyway,

the brand new motor was already broken ... Is it still possible?

Whether I warn or not is purely my business.
What the user wants to make of it is indeed up to each of them.
But this problem will no longer exist in the future anyway.

I think the thread can be closed.
VG Ralph

[Clugh]

Marian-YGE

User

• Today at 16:58

• #823

Powercroco wrote:
The brand new engine was already broken ... Is it still possible?

Of course, not when he was new! It had already broken down, in this flight or in the flight before, at full power!
Until the regulator no longer allowed it.
Please just take a look at the logs.

Phew... Please close the thread.

[Clugh]

Du willst deinen kleinen Thread jetzt also schließen, Ralph? LOL, das war nicht Gerds Absicht, also sieht es so aus, als würdest du von professionellen Herstellern und Ingenieuren unter die Lupe genommen. Du wolltest immer Anerkennung und jetzt bekommst du sie. Komm schon. Halte durch, Hund. Schließ Crocoworld nicht!!!

Die E-Mail an die YGE-Ingenieure war die beste E-Mail, die ich je verschickt habe!


You are truly cuu cuu the motors are spent and its time to accept that bruder.


Hubert

[Clugh]

Only you would know more about YGE inverters than even their own engineers, but you still can't build your own special device. I hope Heino now realizes what a friend you are. Now it's you who badmouths YGE online! Ironic, isn't it? I am not at all surprised by a person who knows no limits to how far he can go.

Thanks for proof positive
Hubert

[Clugh]

Congratulations to YGE for clearing up all the misconceptions about their devices. These are safe for 400amperes. If you are running at its limits they recommend having telemetry and audible alerts in place in case the motor starts to overload so you can make it home safely.

Temperature / overload warning: If the speed controller’s temperature exceeds its limit, because of overloading or lack of cooling, after landing and/or motor stop, a warning signal is issued (3 beeps in the interval). But the motor is not switched off in flight! Only when the temperature reaches an extremely critical level, rpm will be reduced to 70% of the current power. The partial load operation between half and nearly full power is the most difficult area for an ESC. In addition the running time becomes longer and longer with the Lipo technology. If it comes to repeated temperature warnings, better cooling should be provided or the current should be reduced. These warnings are to be regarded as overload warnings and not as normal operating condition. At high temperatures the components are very stressed and this leads to a decreased service life. You achieve better cooling not only through sufficiently dimensioned air intake, but even more efficiently through a larger air outtake, in order to avoid heat accumulation. You achieve smaller currents by using a smaller propeller or a battery with one less cell.
~YGE~



Nice Job!
Hubert

[Clugh]

If thomas is extracting 9kW and greater than 600Km/h with a 4 blade 11.5 x 44 out of this 3226 and super chief 4 to 1 planetary gearbox then I can exceed it and it will fit the speedfire2. Ill be in the kitchen lab in about an hour to start baking this cake because the plane will be here tomorrow!

All Christian really needs to do is find me a pilot Ralph! Or I might have to ask Andrew Jesky or Gerben .


Hubert

[Clugh]

The calculator says job requires nearly 5 Nm out of the gearbox so a CR coaxial pair of 11.5 x 44 would be better to avoid the gangster lean. Don't know if folder CR is possible but the higher gear ratios would increase the accelerating possible. That might mean something over a relatively short distance as far as speed through a trap is concerned. The Xnova has a 5mm shaft so it can go into the 6 to 1 Super chief but who would run it a 60,000 without a sleeve? Scary! The YGE wont do it anyway, With the conventional outrunner it would be better to stay with the 4 to 1 and wind the motor for 1900-2000 Kv.

[Clugh]

Something like this from JETI purpose built could almost fit though.

[Clugh]

Im at the lab and according to UPS the plane will be here today by 7....