Alternative motor windings and drive schemes

[Clugh]

It's terminated. So after I solder these 3 pigtails my 4TY+7TD hybrid 12N10P P650 is ready to run. The foundational work for Dr Gerling's and Dajaku's work with a 12N10P at the university of Bundeswehr Munich Germany. Comes from the work of Ayman Samy Abdel-Khalik, Shehab Ahmed, and Ahmed Massoud. The published work is titled:

Low Space Harmonics Cancellation in Double Layer Fractional Slot Windings using Dual Multiphase Windings.

Texas A&M, Qatar, and Egypt all have bricks in the foundation of your winding Haus in Munich...😮

Look it up deadpool. That's nothing new!


Danke,
Hubert

[Clugh]

Nice wind in the outrunner Grasshopper 😁. Definitely has some copper in the slot now.

What is the fill compared to your best 12N10P at the same Kv?

FYI Jeff and Steve at Neumotors get incredible fill with micro stranding and ultra low resistances with 1/2 turn windings. It can fill those voids the larger mono strands cant get to.

I think a castle in runner is machine wound in china. That's part of the difference.

If you want to wind inrunners you can get raw stacks from TP POWER.

[Clugh]

Flip the Kapton around in the slot and you can use it to lock more copper into the slot if you use smaller stranding and stuff it in.

[Clugh]

[Clugh]

Hi Ralph,
Comparing a 5050 outrunner to and 3040 in runner makes no sense. Compare it to comparable in runner .

You dizzy yet?

The goal post just keep moving don't they?

A fair comparison in runner to in runner outrunner to outrunner. If you really want to compare the 3040 on a gear get compare it to a Neumotor 1545 for 8s lipo Ralph. No issue.

Let your outrunner fight his outrunner at the same weight class . That's all there is to it. Bringing up what your outrunner motor does beside the 50000 rpm in runner means nothing practical

If he wanted really wanted to compare something it would be the 4035 HK5 and his LMT 4125 at the same weight and Kv. No mentions of it. I guess its a leopard....

[Clugh]

Hi Hubert,
yes, like your role model from Thuringia, you have managed to downgrade yourself to a small Chinese motor winder. What progress. We automate winding manufacturing and motor design to achieve the highest power density and copper fill factor and you are the idiot threading the copper wire into the stator like an inferior worker. You don't even earn minimum wage. Great future. I increased my taxable profit by 25% last year and that's amazing if you knew how high my profit was before. You're no longer a blackbird tinkerer. No matter how you wrap, you won't achieve more than 50% fill factor with your method. Congratulations on your progress into the Stone Age manufacturer. You only get peanuts for it, nothing else. I am now logging out of your unsuccessful motor and electronics children's page. And don't write to me anymore asking me to help you, you can't do it anyway. PS: Lehner sells over 1000 + engines per month to the industry in the USA alone .
The Motor you show has 8 magnets , i have 20 , that´s a differente thing you do not understand and you do not know the Applications of the 20 pol motor. Oh Boy

Happy Amps Christian

LOL so I guess I know the 8 pole motor is the correct one since you just explained that your is not for high speed and the pole Xnovas runs at 30,000 rpm and peak at 93.28 Eta. Its 495 grams. with a winding factor or 1.

BTW Thungaria has won over half your winter Olympic medals. Is that where Ralph is from? The have great athletes and minds there according to the WWW. Is there something else you like to say about the place or the Chinese? is the hobby forum supposed to base the performance of electric motors on politics ? WTF does Thungaria and the Chinese have to do with a winding scheme used by everyone? The same one you use?

I don't get the disjunct post at all. It makes no sense partly based on what you just posted in your own thread about your 20 poles slow speed application

[Clugh]

Now in your explanation to the speed klan you say the 20 pole is not for speed flight or high rpms now and that no one understood your application. Have you forgotten you posted this first?

Read what you said....

"Hi,

"To the windings I have done a few measurements the days that illuminate the winding factor and the stator tooth thickness more. The winding factor k_w describes how effectively a winding converts the magnetic flux change into usable voltage. . This can be calculated in a complicated way, but most people can't really understand it, but there is also a practical method in which you measure the induced voltage of a coil of a machine and compare it with other coils in other winding concepts and groove pole ratios. However, you have to follow some rules to be able to compare them. These are the same magnet qualities, preferably from one production. Same stator sheet metal cuts. Same sheet metal qualities and the same winding wire qualities, diameters and the same wire lengths over which the measurements are taken. Thus, all coils were designed with a standard wire of 0.645 mm and always the same wire length. In concentrated coils, where only one tooth is wound at a time, more wire length remains outside, but the resistance of all wires is the same. This would not be absolutely necessary, since only the voltages are recorded and the resistance therefore does not play a direct role, but all conditions should be the same. Stators with a diameter of 35mm and egg length of 20 mm were used, The bells are also all matching bells with in direct comparison, the same magnetic strips but in different pole pair numbers, thus as 10 poles, 14 polers and as 20 poles. The initial consideration is that the winding calculator outputs the weighting factor for these pole pair numbers. For 10 polers 0.93301, for 14 polers 0.93301 for 2 layer windings and 0.96593 each for 1 layer windings. With the 12N 4 poler it is a 1 at 1 and 2 layer windings and this leads to the same factor in the extended winding factor consideration with 20 poles and 28 and 44 poles. In order not to get too narrow magnetic strips and stator teeth, only the 20 pole version was taken a closer look. The machines were wound with the coils as pure measuring coils and the rotor bells were always driven by a third-party machine at exactly 1662 rpm. For this purpose, the frequency was also measured on the oscilloscope.


The pictures show the stators with the windings and the rotor bells. With the 10 poler, each magnetic pole was created from two stiffeners glued at equal distances, which leads to a small dent in the induction voltage, but with motor controls it comes closer to a square voltage and thus reduces the harmonics, is in operation at many actuators much more favorable in terms of losses. Since the 10 polers are very less good when it comes to torsional thrust, i.e. torque yield, this was accepted.


The results : the highest EMF was achieved with a stator with wider stator teeth and a distributed winding over 3 stator teeth. An expected result, since the winding factor has the maximum of 1 and the wide stator tooth also captures and conducts the highest magnetization. With 0.894 volts, it reaches the highest voltage.


The result confirms that the winding with the highest winding factor achieves the highest tension. In addition, it also clearly shows thes the amount of iron, i.e. the width of the stator tooth, contributes significantly to the increased flow and also increases the tension.


The 12N10P used in speed flight with the winding distributed on two adjacent stator teeth falls off quite significantly, might be better suited for higher speeds if the pole change frequency increases the associated losses.


Furthermore, it should be noted that the highest EMF with 0.894 volts of the other windings and pole numbers can only be achieved by more turns, or the 12N20P can be wound over 3 teeth, with fewer turns and in return with a thicker wire cross-section. The smaller number of turns alone compensates for the larger winding head, the larger cross-section / diameter results in a plus in ohmic resistance. If more turns have to be applied to achieve the same voltage, the winding with the worse winding factor is also the one that deteriorates the copper fill factor in relation to the winding factor. Winding a motor with two coils next to each other in one phase is the worse option, especially if pure maximum performance is sought. I did the simple measurements because I got two Flyware 3520 from a friend who could no longer use them, I still have the Torcman from before. So considerations arose about what could be done with it. It's nice that the physics has dutifully confirmed itself. More iron in the stator tooth has a positive effect. The bobbin side as el. Setting 180 degrees brings the highest winding factor, which has already been shown with the air coil motors, whose coil sides are exactly 180 degrees. Everyone sees the magnetic field at the same time and thus adds up the voltages "in time". The fact that you can save a few turns during winding with optimized winding design and thus carry out the winding with thicker wire reduces the ohmic resistance of the coils. What I test next is how the wider coil heads of the overlapping coils can be cooled and whether the resulting larger surface area can dissipate more heat, since the heat in the grooves is conducted axially out through the copper wire and so does not have to leave air slots in the active part of the motor free to be able to cool, especially with air it needs much more surface area, with liquid cooling it would be much thinner, more space-saving. On the whole, it clearly shows the improvements. Such tests should be carried out with every newly designed motor, the stator tooth width and its hammer heads, if any, and the magnet quality and width ratios play too much into the measurements. There is already a 4020 with 16 poles ready, which should also be looked at more closely.
Nobody has to imitate that, is completely my private play instinct, because I want to know. Furthermore, there are considerations of different winding methods whether 1 layer, 2 layer or nested winding to the 12N20P motor to see which one can be cooled best.
A small addendum to a rewound T-motor. A motor that is designed for a high speed with thicker wire ffor high power density and is then operated for sheet metal cutting with borderline 3.5 KW has, if you are very optimistic, 0.7 KW power dissipation at 80% efficiency. If the same motor is now equipped with a winding that is supposed to penetrate only 1.2 KW of power at a lower speed, only 0.24 KW of power is dissipated, if one simply calculates with the same efficiency. Now everyone can guess which operation brings the engine to heat death faster with otherwise equally heavy engines."

~Happy Amps Christian~

I put it in big letters what you said. Now that the goal post have move to slow rotating traction motors. Got ya again! Its also funny how you know in this passage to test motors the same weight. Do it with the HK5 4035 and your LMT 4125. 😀 Then you hadn't proven anything at high speed because a damn 1662 rpm hand drill was the prime mover you used. motor Frequency was probably 100 hz . There's nothing there to see or affect harmonically.

Got ya again!

I read what you say closely.

Hubert

[Clugh]

I figured it would lack copper fill as compared to a concentrated wind. The musician should wind his hybrid versus asking Luke's questions.

[Clugh]

Thanks for the lap layout on the outrunner. I'll file this winding scheme away and build one sometime. It is interesting but I'd like to see it actually run.

[Clugh]

I knew without you winding it that it would lack fill compared to a fractionally slotted concentrated wind. Its still interesting for an alternative. You don't have to have maximum fill to be a good motor. 40% is fair and can still bring excellent efficiency, so then there's that. Because the wind is harmonically clean it may mitigate AC resistance better. You should run it a record some data first. At least record the phase resistance, idle currents, and voltage constant. For nspec winding reference. I love the idea that reduced turns supposedly compensate large winding head and is a plus in Ohmic resistance but in a multistranded motor wind You should be equally concerned with the motors impedance. DCR is just one half of the coin. To me is not as critical because DC is stall and the motor works at the other end of the spectrum with mostly AC. Lowering the ACR which can be 10 times the DC is where its really at.

[Clugh]

You can look here and have an idea of what you think the optimal tooth width to pole pitch ratio is for max flux linkage.

[Clugh]

BTW if anyone is interested in the hybrid and plans to run it with an inverter in the DQ frame you need to accurately report the D and Q inductances.


DQ Analysis of Fractional-Slot Machines with Star-Delta Concentrated Winding


I. A. Rudden1, P. Wang1, H. Li1, G. J. Li1, Senior Member, IEEE, Z. Q. Zhu1, Fellow, IEEE, A. Duke2, R. Clark2
1, Department of Electronic and Electrical Engineering, The University of Sheffield, Sheffield, UK,
2, Siemens Gamesa Renewable Energy Limited, North Campus, Broad Lane, Sheffield, UK
Corresponding author: Guang-Jin Li (e-mail: g.li@sheffield.ac.uk).
This work is supported by the UK EPSRC Prosperity Partnership “A New Partnership in Offshore Wind” under Grant No. EP/R004900/1.

[Clugh]

Hi,
Man muss sich schon Wundern ? Weshalb wickelt jemand einen Stator mit einem normalen Wickelschema obwohl er schon alles für seine Belange hin ausgetestet hat ? Vor was hat jemand Angst ? Was will man damit beweisen ? Dass man mit den früheren Versuchen gepfuscht hat oder was soll den der Aktionismus den plötzlich belegen ? Und eine Wicklung aufzieht die für hohe Drehzahlen mit wenigen Windungen in eine ganz andere Richtung zielt .

Happy Amps Christian

Die Antwort auf Ihre Fragen ist einfach, Skywalker. Sie haben den Wind nie auf einem 20-Pol-Rotor ausprobiert und Sie haben ihn ihnen als Alternative zu einem 12N10P-Motor vorgeschlagen, den sie beim Schnellfliegen verwenden. In der spezifischen Anwendung dreht sich der 5050 mit 15000-20000 U/min. Wir haben vor zwei Tagen entschieden, dass dies die endgültige Lösung ist, anstatt den Motor laufen zu lassen. Den Praktiker als inkompetent zu bezeichnen und ihm stattdessen nichts Empirisches anzubieten, was von Ihnen richtig gemacht wurde.

Sie sehen, es geschah genau wie vorhergesagt

Thanks
Hubert

[Clugh]

An equivalent winding factor larger than 1 by using flux barriers in the stator

• J. Gerold, D. Gerling
• Published in International Electric… 1 May 2019
• Engineering, Physics

It uses a concentrated winding system and you can also add a short circuit winding in the barrier for even better performance. So in this case removing iron increased the winding factor and torque output. You can also gas or liquid cool the stator through the flux barrier channels.

So why would an expert show the speeders a winding topology copied from Neumotors that can not beat it? They need to ask themselves what was their point? This is a more current solution, and it still expanding on the technology. I guess someone doesn't read the current winders news... This is another one that exceeds a Kw of 1without more iron.....

[Clugh]

'

He always refers the Munich but this is what the University is doing. He should take his 20 pole there an have it professionally examined in MUNICH!

[Chxxpress]

Hi,

what statements you are spreading here that you don't understand. Who was the first to show you Prof. Gerling's flow barriers? I showed it in the RC Line forum, including on magnet motors, and Helmut testified to Ralph Okon. We have been making flow barriers for over 30 years. The motor made from IMPHY's cobalt iron sheets has the cooling holes positioned in such a way that they act as flow barriers. I have shown it for a long time but I wasn't allowed to say it because of patents. Nobody understood it anyway. Now the universities and manufacturers are slowly getting closer to the matter. We have very good contact with the Bundeswehr University, Kosta Kanelis is from there, I gave him as a contact. We have further developed the compound disc drive motor with Prof. Marquardt. Kontronik has already shown it as a model motor in the black box at the toy fair. Okon can confirm this, he was there when I told Ms Konrad what type of motor it was. EMOSYS is continuing to develop flux barrier motors for civil aviation. With improved magnetic flux compressing rotors, much higher continuous rotational thrusts can be achieved than in model making for a few seconds. I never recommended the 12N20P for speed flight applications. What nonsense. I always wrote that the Lehner 4125 Twin or the 3040 inrunner would be suitable for this. The 3040 would have the highest performance as it operates with the highest efficiency. The high-pole machines are better at low speeds but you have to know how to do it. We've known for ages that you can achieve a winding factor higher than 1 with flux barrier machines, and it's also possible with adapted magnet systems. Lehner has this in a small outrunner and it has a winding factor of 1. You don't measure and you don't have the engines or the knowledge about the machines. So leave it, we'll do it right.
Andreas Greifelt is a very good friend of Andreas Lehner.
Greifelt founded a few companies together with Prof. Gerling. Somehow the ball isn't falling properly for you. What the heck. There's no way we can help you.

Happy Amps Christian

[Clugh]

Dear Wunderbread,

Solche verdeckten Täter verbreiten Unwahrheiten, um Ihren Ruf zu schädigen oder Ihre Glaubwürdigkeit bei anderen in den Schmutz zu ziehen. Dies ist eine Form von Gaslighting, die Ihr Image in der Öffentlichkeit so manipulieren soll, dass niemand glaubt, Sie würden missbraucht. Der Täter arbeitet Überstunden, um Sie als Täter darzustellen und sich der Verantwortung für seine Taten zu entziehen. Allen Hetzkampagnen liegt Rufmord zugrunde. Bösartige Narzissten schlagen präventiv mit persönlichen Angriffen zu, um Sie zu verunsichern und Ihren guten Namen zu beschmutzen, weil sie krankhaft neidisch sind oder sich bedroht fühlen. Hetzkampagnen können auch außerhalb von Liebesbeziehungen gestartet werden; sie können am Arbeitsplatz, in Freundeskreisen, durch die Medien sowie innerhalb von Großfamilien zirkulieren. Es ist zum Beispiel nicht ungewöhnlich, dass ein krankhaft neidischer, soziopathischer Kollege seinen Vorgesetzten falsche Informationen über seine hart arbeitenden Kollegen zuspielt, um sie als „Bedrohung“ beim Aufstieg auf der Karriereleiter auszuschalten. Wenn Narzissten die höheren Autoritätsebenen infiltrieren, können sie möglicherweise noch mehr Zerstörung anrichten, indem sie diejenigen sabotieren, die sie als Konkurrenz wahrnehmen. Joe Navarro, ehemaliger FBI-Profiler, schreibt in seinem Buch „Dangerous Personalities“: „Narzissten können hohe Positionen in einflussreichen oder vertrauenswürdigen Berufen erreichen, in denen Übertretungen und Machtmissbrauch verheerende Folgen haben können. Wenn es einen Polizisten gibt, der lügt, betrügt und stiehlt; einen Gesundheitsexperten, der sich für den Schiedsrichter über Leben und Tod hält; einen Trainer, der vertrauensselige Kinder sexuell missbraucht, steigt das Schadenspotenzial exponentiell.“

Tut mir leid, er hat euch gerade wieder eine Lüge erzählt. Die Wahrheit ist, ich habe Helmut das Buch von Dr. Gerling gegeben, also wie hat er es mir erzählt? Jeder muss einfach auf rc-line.de nachschauen, um die ganze Geschichte zu erfahren. Ich habe auch direkt mit Dieter Gerling gesprochen ... und habe immer noch seine E-Mails bei DTNA. Ich habe seinen persönlichen Segen für meine Schnitte erhalten ...

Du hast solche Wahnvorstellungen, es ist traurig. Und kannst nie beim Thema bleiben. Nichts von dem, was du gepostet hast, hat etwas damit zu tun, dass ein Wickelfaktor höher als 1 ohne einen dicken Zahn erreichbar ist.

Wenn Ihre Theorien so unfehlbar sind, wie Sie denken, was passiert dann mit Ihrem 4125 und dem gleich schweren Scorpion HK5 4035?

Ist Ihr Problem mit derartigen Falschmeldungen und Hetzkampagnen der Grund, warum man Ihnen eine isolierte Sandbox erstellt hat, in der Sie ganz allein auf Gerds Site spielen können und die keine Viertelmillion Aufrufe hat?

[Clugh]

Funny because the third attachment you copied and pasted from one of my threads...
Ralph already knows it so you are in clear view as a liar for him.. He knows from post just like this. This cooling with fluid photo did not come from you! The medium was cooling the gap directly and the suggestion from me was ferrofluid. You have sociopathic issue for sure dude.

I came to rc line at YOUR INVITATION where they had yet to confirm a single piece of any winding theory with an oscilloscope!!!


GTFOOH you and them havent taught me ****!

I guess that's why you wont find a picture of the cut on an external rotor anywhere b4 mine in Munich and you def did not have it or you wouldn't be showcasing an ancient Lap winding system....

The entire reason you cry like a bitch is because the speeders and other engineers WONT sit in your class and call you god.

U see how much they care about it Motor Fuhrer...?

Hubert

[Clugh]

Its funny also because of all these TEACHERS the only one standing with it wound is me. So id love to see these real example i was taught from...


I was taught from the winding diagrams of the IEEE Posted here and directly from the Authors. The hobby forums are good for clown shows from Bayern.

More
Deadpool!

[Clugh]

Here is that post

look at the dates and the facts it is 12 hours later....
U see how a disruptive person comes on the forums and cannot offer any data for their winding concepts so they offer information in a failed smear campaign that is absolutely and factually incorrect in every way?



Hubert