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Alternative motor windings and drive schemes

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  • B,
    The rotational thrust generation (also called tangential force effect) is influenced by several geometric and electromagnetic parameters. An optimized design of these factors can improve the torque generation and thus the performance of electrical machines.

    1. Geometric factors

    a) Number of pole pairs p and pole pitch
    • A higher number of pole pairs reduces the synchronous speed, but increases the torque density.
    • The pole pitch \tau_p = \frac{\pi D}{p} (with D as the rotor or stator diameter) influences the distribution of the magnetic flux. An optimal pole pitch maximizes the magnetic coupling.

    b) Air gap height
    • A small air gap ( \delta ) improves the magnetic coupling between the rotor and stator because the magnetic resistance is reduced.
    • However, an air gap that is too small can make manufacturing tolerances critical and lead to higher mechanical losses.

    c) Stator and rotor tooth shape
    • Wider teeth concentrate the magnetic field better, which increases the tangential force (rotational thrust).

    • An optimized tooth shape with rounded edges reduces local saturation effects and improves flux guidance.

    d) Winding arrangement
    • Distributed windings lead to better magnetic flux distribution and higher effective torque.

    • Concentric windings generate higher harmonics, which can have a negative effect on torque generation.

    2. Electromagnetic properties

    a) Magnetic flux density BÂ
    • A higher flux density in the air gap fields leads to a stronger torque.
    • Materials with a high saturation flux density (e.g. grain-oriented electrical steel) enable a higher magnetization.

    b) Permeability of the iron cores
    • A high permeability reduces the magnetic resistance and improves the coupling between the rotor and stator.
    • High-quality electrical steel with low hysteresis improves the magnetic conductivity and reduces losses.

    c) Permanent magnets (in synchronous machines)
    • High-quality rare earth magnets (e.g. neodymium) enable stronger magnetic fields and higher torques.
    • The arrangement of the magnets (e.g. surface-mounted vs. embedded) influences the reluctance torque and the field strength.

    d) Current coating and winding inductance
    • A high current density in the windings generates stronger magnetic fields and increases the rotational thrust-forming component.
    • The leakage inductance should be minimized in order to use as much magnetic energy as possible to generate torque.

    Summary: Which factors have a positive effect?

    1. Geometric:

    ✅ Small air gap height
    ✅ Optimized pole pitch and tooth shape
    ✅ Distributed windings for uniform magnetization

    2. Electromagnetic:

    ✅ High flux density B through optimized materials
    ✅ Highly permeable iron cores to reduce magnetic resistance
    ✅ Strong permanent magnets or field winding for high magnetization
    ✅ Low leakage inductance to maximize the usable flux

    By combining these factors, the rotary thrust-forming component can be maximized, increasing the torque and efficiency of the machine.​

    Happy Amps Christian

    Comment


    • Good summary of ways to optimize a machine.

      Click image for larger version  Name:	Untitled.png Views:	0 Size:	121.4 KB ID:	420336
      Happy Harmonics....😀

      If you reduce the harmonic content in this way, you have shown with the distributed wind on 20 poles, it certainly improves the power factor. If the power factor is improved, then is more real power versus reactive power delivered to the load. That's fundamental power electronics. If Ralph and his friends cannot understand that they are not at electronics. I'd laugh at the lock and continue with you excellent work on the subject matter . Its excellent work and I think its funny someone had to lock it because they cannot let go of the older outrunner winding schemes and the cd rom topologies.

      Do not be mad at cd Romulans in crocoworld led by Captain Crocopuff that are not part of the federation of high efficiency electric motors yet. They are at 69% and will need to harness more power from the darkside before they can fire a real shot from the deathstar.

      Attached Files
      State-of-the-art PMSM/BLDC motor control solution for aerospace applications and robotics - Télega - Zubax Robotics
      Advanced Power Drives

      MOTORS FOR RC SURFACE VEHICLES - NEU RACING​​​

      Comment


      • Hi Hubert,
        yes you are right. The Flyware stator has smaller tooth and has 0,866 Volt , the other stator with the wider tooth has 0,894 volt , that is higher and belong to moor iron . Both run at same rpm and same 20 pol rotor . So moore iron suck moore magnetic lines has a higher induction. That was teached at school . They tell all they use moore iron with the bigger motor yes okay , but it is bigger and havy and less aerodynamic. A real racing engine is smaler, lighter and has better aerodynamic, less square dia less drag. Everybody know it.

        Happy Amps Christian

        Comment


        • Yes optimize the wind and iron. Amazing how two work together better than one..... Let's see what comes out. I like this idea. I'll def bring it on some thicker iron and we test it God willing.

          State-of-the-art PMSM/BLDC motor control solution for aerospace applications and robotics - Télega - Zubax Robotics
          Advanced Power Drives

          MOTORS FOR RC SURFACE VEHICLES - NEU RACING​​​

          Comment



          • Junge aus Dresden schweigend und mit geschlossenem Mund da und überlegt, was er wohl als Antwort geben könnte. Er braucht einen sicheren Ort. Das gesamte Wickelforum für das GSM ist aktuell geschlossen.
            Attached Files
            State-of-the-art PMSM/BLDC motor control solution for aerospace applications and robotics - Télega - Zubax Robotics
            Advanced Power Drives

            MOTORS FOR RC SURFACE VEHICLES - NEU RACING​​​

            Comment


            • Click image for larger version  Name:	image.png Views:	0 Size:	288.8 KB ID:	420366​Since you are here at 5:45 am looking for a response to you REMOTE response shy boy. Here it is


              "This is still nothing but an unproven claim (for many years).
              Or did I miss something?"

              ~Ralph Okon~


              Click image for larger version  Name:	images (2).jpg Views:	0 Size:	8.1 KB ID:	420367
              State-of-the-art PMSM/BLDC motor control solution for aerospace applications and robotics - Télega - Zubax Robotics
              Advanced Power Drives

              MOTORS FOR RC SURFACE VEHICLES - NEU RACING​​​

              Comment


              • Der elektronische Betrüger Dr Ralph Okon glaubt trotz seiner eigenen Maßstäbe, dass es nun eine Tatsache sei, weil er es ohne Beweise sagt.Warum? Weil Gerd seinen Thread sperrt, damit er nicht widersprechen kann. Mann, du bist ein Weichei. Bean! Beans schwuler Arsch hat nichts zu seinen alten YGEs zu sagen. Er möchte, dass seine Freunde vergessen, dass er das Ohmsche Gesetz nicht versteht. Oder dass er Docht falsch eingedreht hat.Er redet in einem Scorpion-Thread über Lehners und sagt, er wolle sich darauf beschränken, nur über dieses Thema zu sprechen. Scorpion Knockers

                Der Mann ist so verrückt, dass er seinen eigenen Maßstäben nicht folgen kann.

                zur Hölle mit deiner Schrottkiste, Junge, jedes Mal, wenn du darin spielst, werden wir einen Kommentar abgeben Heuchler!

                Danke,
                Hubert
                Attached Files
                State-of-the-art PMSM/BLDC motor control solution for aerospace applications and robotics - Télega - Zubax Robotics
                Advanced Power Drives

                MOTORS FOR RC SURFACE VEHICLES - NEU RACING​​​

                Comment


                • Soon a lesson will have to come about how just more iron doesn't make it better. But it wont come from me.....

                  4150 VS 5050

                  Enjoy the conversation. This is what happens with simplistic understanding.


                  Hubert
                  State-of-the-art PMSM/BLDC motor control solution for aerospace applications and robotics - Télega - Zubax Robotics
                  Advanced Power Drives

                  MOTORS FOR RC SURFACE VEHICLES - NEU RACING​​​

                  Comment


                  • Hi Hubert,

                    and not only Ohms law also magnetic , size of core when his 5050 nocer has 8 newton trust wirh 3mm iron and if we go simple like a milky maid math the 5mm has 13,3 newton and need less wire turn belong to winding factor and statorteeth size. Doing the math with this numbers we will see 15,7 Nm torque for the 5050 and 15,84 Nm torque for the 4150 .
                    but the open slot stator has not the Okon limit , it can do easy 14 or 16 newton trust magnetic calculation is a little more complicat than we see 18,5 Nm or 21.1 Nm. At 15000 rpm we have for the 5050 = 24 kw power and for the 12 Nm 4150 25 kw , for the 14 Nm 29 kw and the 16 Nm does 33 kw.
                    with magnetic flux compresion pm magnet and superconductivity the trust numbers are much higher , for short peak we see up to 60 newton trust, coilgun much much higher.

                    Happy Amps Christian

                    Comment


                    • Its an interesting comparison. Because a 6542 neumotor 24N22P outrunner weighs 969 grams and can max 10.88Nm for 8Kw. The 6560 can deliver 15.551 Nm for 14 Kw. Itz 1305 grams.

                      Ralph wont report with a photo on a scale the total weight of his 5050 with his full billet spinner system.

                      The hobbyist have many motor options.

                      Danke
                      Hubert
                      State-of-the-art PMSM/BLDC motor control solution for aerospace applications and robotics - Télega - Zubax Robotics
                      Advanced Power Drives

                      MOTORS FOR RC SURFACE VEHICLES - NEU RACING​​​

                      Comment


                      • Hi,

                        lets make a silly test. Take a 3mm dia steel rod and a 5mm dia steel rod same lengh and place 20 tun copperwire with 2mm dia on both . Then ad power start with 20;amps and then rise by 10 amps per step . Every time we make a trust test , messuring the load it can lift . What do you think can lift the higher load and witch one has early sep down by saturation ? Next in this theater.

                        Happy Amps Christian
                        Attached Files

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Chxpress View Post
                          Hi,

                          lets make a silly test. Take a 3mm dia steel rod and a 5mm dia steel rod same lengh and place 20 tun copperwire with 2mm dia on both . Then ad power start with 20;amps and then rise by 10 amps per step . Every time we make a trust test , messuring the load it can lift . What do you think can lift the higher load and witch one has early sep down by saturation ? Next in this theater.

                          Happy Amps Christian
                          But just this doesn't make the rotating machine where many more physics take place. This is simply a DC solid core electromagnet with no frequency. Ac resistance can be 10 times the DC. Again we get the thick tooth theory but it isn't everything. Wound on tooth Fluss Perren would not work if it was. You also diminish significant advantage with a SL thick tooth when you add the torque ripple of mismatching it with a sinus drive.

                          And again the Quadrature axis also play a major role in the torque delivery. So geometry and how much induction is there also plays a part. There is stil an empirical question that remains at the propellor that has to be answered. This simple electromagnet test does not answer that question. There are already some empiric measures that surpass the theoretical in this case. You cant ignore that.'


                          Turn some actual props and log it and or take the mechanical measure.

                          Hubert
                          State-of-the-art PMSM/BLDC motor control solution for aerospace applications and robotics - Télega - Zubax Robotics
                          Advanced Power Drives

                          MOTORS FOR RC SURFACE VEHICLES - NEU RACING​​​

                          Comment


                          • You like coil gun analogies but most coil guns don't gain any velocity by enlarging the ferrous projectile only the kinetic energy is increased and it sucks more amperage to do it. This is why such apples to oranges comparison arent really illustrative of what goes on in the rotating machine with alot of things in play. The best way for an airplane comparison is with an airplane prop on their motor with their inverter. I think that's pretty fair and simple for anyone to understand.

                            Run the distributed wind on the castle. It's a BLDC signature just like the 12N4P. Turn a prop.....

                            Hubert
                            State-of-the-art PMSM/BLDC motor control solution for aerospace applications and robotics - Télega - Zubax Robotics
                            Advanced Power Drives

                            MOTORS FOR RC SURFACE VEHICLES - NEU RACING​​​

                            Comment


                            • yes, of course frequency, inductance must then be taken into account. Only with two completely identical slot/pole systems does the inductance differ due to the larger core. What do you have to do for that? just timing and ?

                              Happy Amps Christian

                              Comment


                              • The self inductance is higher with a single layer than a dual layer on 12N10P FSCW on the same exact stator. The direct and quadrature inductances are also different values for each machine. Nothing has changed about the iron but what tooth the coils are wrapped around and the amount of turns double which is an inductor with a higher Q

                                A standard delta also has no protection against inductive PWM spikes that can damage the motors insulation faster into damage whereas an wye - delta is a delta with embedded load reactors that will absorb those spikes. Can just a wide tooth do that or eliminate the zero order harmonic? The load reactors also allow for longer cables without bad PWM reflections.

                                And again for theories a slot less motor has no teeth or cogging torque.

                                Theory is theory but at the same Kv the props rpm and amp draw is where the truth it is at for speed plane. Whichever motor has the best combination of theories is the winner. Just thicker teeth isn't enough. Some one else can have teeth just as thick or a bit smaller with a better wind that utilizes the tooth and inverter better. You cant theorize your way to a win with a hobbyist or a speed plane event.

                                You have to turn a prop.
                                State-of-the-art PMSM/BLDC motor control solution for aerospace applications and robotics - Télega - Zubax Robotics
                                Advanced Power Drives

                                MOTORS FOR RC SURFACE VEHICLES - NEU RACING​​​

                                Comment


                                • Its very simple if you are in Germany to get the speed props from Marcus. Put the prop on the 41 tandem outrunners of the same Kv as a 5050 and turn it the same rpm for less amperage or more rpm for less amperage.

                                  You know how to test this directly for the winner without excuse.


                                  Hubert
                                  State-of-the-art PMSM/BLDC motor control solution for aerospace applications and robotics - Télega - Zubax Robotics
                                  Advanced Power Drives

                                  MOTORS FOR RC SURFACE VEHICLES - NEU RACING​​​

                                  Comment


                                  • If you can get the props I would love to buy the highest pitches to pull and record and present the data.

                                    Thanks
                                    Hubert.
                                    State-of-the-art PMSM/BLDC motor control solution for aerospace applications and robotics - Télega - Zubax Robotics
                                    Advanced Power Drives

                                    MOTORS FOR RC SURFACE VEHICLES - NEU RACING​​​

                                    Comment


                                    • Hi,
                                      i do not want to show that the small outrunner has the same power of the 5050 , i know it . But if someone would like to set a new record the 3040 Lehner inrunner with gear is the way . much higher efficancy and powerdensity , no Syncloss, better coling. There is now way for the Scorpion 5050 , it can not competite.

                                      Happy Amps Christian

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Chxpress View Post
                                        Hi,
                                        i do not want to show that the small outrunner has the same power of the 5050 , i know it . But if someone would like to set a new record the 3040 Lehner inrunner with gear is the way . much higher efficancy and powerdensity , no Syncloss, better coling. There is now way for the Scorpion 5050 , it can not competite.

                                        Happy Amps Christian
                                        Well that's just and opinion without a real test. The claim was two 4125s in tandem not a 3040 on a gear box so that would be moving the goal post. And it to is still unproven at the prop.. The 5050 already turns their speed props a certain rpm for a certain amp draw and that's logged. if you dont want to show them what's the purpose of the posting and threads because they dont believe just the theory and so then who are you posting to in crocoworld?

                                        Finally a 5050 is truly more iron than a 4150 under the coil

                                        If you don't want to show them anything what is the point and effort of all the formulas and simple dc electromagnets ? That doesn't prove anything to them or a subject matter engineer. They also have real data that the 42 series is very comparable to the 41 in performance at their prop. I also did my own independent and unbiased calculation based on your recorded constants and the HK edged out the 41 in power density and the efficiency was the same. In their test the 42HK turned the prop the same speed for less amperage. Empirically it made more real torque per amp in their test. The recorded constants came from you both individually and are clearly available for both engines so any hobbyist can calculate and objective view in a brand proxy war.

                                        This is what was posted from their empirical test.

                                        "Since you obviously put the world in order as you need it, here are the two comparative values at partial load with 86% PWM:
                                        To turn the same prop with 14500U, your part-load optimized miracle motor needs 6787W, but the scrap iron only needs 6432W."
                                        ~Audiosmith~​​

                                        This is what they know because they were willing to test it head to head not just listening to theory.

                                        I can live with it and so I guess its all settled now because the same empirical request face a 3040 on a gearbox on the forum. I only need hear it one time to fully understand the request.

                                        Have a good day.
                                        Hubert
                                        State-of-the-art PMSM/BLDC motor control solution for aerospace applications and robotics - Télega - Zubax Robotics
                                        Advanced Power Drives

                                        MOTORS FOR RC SURFACE VEHICLES - NEU RACING​​​

                                        Comment


                                        • For me Ralph if there is a source for me to get the propellers ill out turn you empirically.

                                          Id love to show you. I love the real test and Holle's calculators. Stay with it because thats the only way you really know. But you'll purposely fudge a test. Megatron and Star scream can't be trusted either with reported 48khz yge 320's. Forum Decepticons even go as far as to tell a winding Forum the YGE engineers themselves do not know how their own inverter works to take the blame off a failing demagnetized powercroco rewound 5050 motor and disabling of all the safeguards for "DUMM" running....

                                          Now thats "sick!" and the fires are empiric as well.
                                          State-of-the-art PMSM/BLDC motor control solution for aerospace applications and robotics - Télega - Zubax Robotics
                                          Advanced Power Drives

                                          MOTORS FOR RC SURFACE VEHICLES - NEU RACING​​​

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