Alternative motor windings and drive schemes

[Clugh]

Yes and you Ralph are "the stupid contemporary" as I showed you the idea b4 2014....

Nothing has changed about you... you just spoke on the idea last year...and what I said you got from me was bringing them out from underneath the hood. Getting them away from the end turns. And you did.

Thanks for confirming you weren't doing it in 2014!

Another failed Powercroco attempt at fallacy disproven. What's new?

Still no class for the losers....


You still winding the same thing from 10 years ago...?


You didn't answer the question about the non NMB just a few days ago. Whats wrong with you? Do you have dementia because the forum and www archives does not.

6800RU????

Powercroco! You cannot be honest with the forums....In the "Who can wind my motor?" thread not one hobbyist on Heli freak mentioned you.
Hubert

[Clugh]

Stop worrying about the American winding program you jealous munch. You keep mentioning what we do here. Thats 10X better than you. You wont stop a single contract with your ignorant post on the German social media. No one is listening to you but the blind on crocoworld.

There's still no technical class for you or your friends and it will not be any time soon.

America has F3A coming up...

I've no more time for an extremely jealous amateur winder in Germany that spends all his time here and does nothing new. Hating on better winders like Bert and winding convention is all you have ever done.

I really don't care what he does with the bifilar high idle nonsense he winds.@ 70% ETA do you?


Proximity man wind your hearts content load it with the ancient YGE 320 and their poor speed planes right into the ground.

That's your choice not mine.... I am indifferent. I dont fly you so It really isn't my problem crocoworld. Be sure to always install the 5 dollar full steel bearing in the 300-1200 euro high competition speed machines That sounds like the perfect idea coming from you.



Danke
Hubert

[Clugh]

• 13 November 2024

• #816

Good morning everyone,

Armageddon wrote:
With this statement, however, I think that you are making the "old" controllers worse than they are. The log of almost 40s with 300-330A from my FAI setup is known to you or in other words: The 320 can handle the currents in the long run, at least for the duration of a 5100 battery. I had regularly loaded the 160 with 230A "continuous" until sometimes the temp shutdown came. I can't remember ever breaking a regulator of yours due to overload. The parts died in my case either by impact or, as in April with a 160, by unplugging a phase at full load.

First of all, thank you, Kai! :-)
I don't want to badmouth the old controllers. My statement refers to the 160/320HV in delivery condition, i.e. unprocessed. My point is that some of them are highly praised here and are presented as "indestructible". And that's not how it is. And that's the best way for me to judge, because everything that breaks ultimately collects on my table. And that's because they get overloaded and/or regularly get synclosts.
Of course, you can minimize this by taking it slowly. I think that's a good thing and it's exactly the approach we want. Unfortunately, very few people do that.
The fact is, if you leave the regulator unprocessed, so no copper strips on it, shrink tubing stays on, then it can't do what you have logged.
If you make the shrink tube down, it may work, but the question is how often. This can also work well in the long run. However, our experience has shown that the service life suffers very badly, for the reasons described in my previous answer.
This is something that we can no longer offer to the masses, where there are experienced people, but also absolute beginners, and that in all different areas of application.

MottaMotta wrote:
How can it be that an APD400 HV with 220gr and closed aluminum cooler 320-330A continuous current at 16s without overheating until 5100 speed cells were empty? It took a few mails (with APD support) until we had the APD400 so far that it did not limit but after that there was not a single failure, for overtemp, syncloss, squeaking or the like.

Of course, this can work if you develop and design a controller solely on it.
But that is not our goal. See my first post.

Rennsemmel wrote:
The questions that arise to me (as an outsider) are:
- What would have burned off without the protection when syncloss occurred
- Why the partial load alone should be able to generate so much heat in the motor that the magnets break.
This has actually always been more of a controller problem.

- What can happen with synclost. In 9 out of 10 cases, it squeaks. In the worst case, something breaks. Other higher-priced controllers also have protection mechanisms, but then switch off hard.
- Partial load is also flown in the helicopter.

Powercroco wrote:
Marian, then also communicate quite clearly that the use of these controls at the limit without the use of telemetry cannot be recommended, because otherwise the controller can no longer give the user any indication of what is happening!
If errors are no longer reported directly to the user ("Heinolied" and / or clearly noticeable (!) back-rules) and only a readout on the computer (telemetry is nothing else) is necessary to recognize that there was something wrong with the setup, I can't recognize a profit.

Telemetry should be used when you are at the limit. This is nothing new and has been state of the art for many years now. I don't think you have to point it out explicitly. Anyone who resists this should not be surprised if he does not find the optimum.
Even my over 10-year-old Futaba T14SG, which I still use here and after, can do this and shows me all data, including throttle preselection and PWM separately during the flight.
You don't have to connect it to the computer for this. But it makes sense to take a look here from time to time. Kai has described it nicely how this can be realized directly in the station.

Powercroco wrote:
Nobody knows exactly what was going on.
Maybe it was something else.
But the only thing that had changed was the actuator.
Several of these motors (5025) with the same winding can be used with "other controllers" without any problems.
And with a new bell, exactly this winding runs without any problems.
Just as she made 2-3 flights with a replacement bell without any problems.
Then she was over again just like the first.
Of course, I took back the broken engine 2x, that's a question of honor.


No fault was found on the controller during an inspection.
Click to enlarge....

We talked about it for a long time on the phone.
What has also changed is that the engines are otherwise used in wings (continuous full throttle).
Here it was a heli application. This means a completely different current course and partial load.
A component that should not be ignored.
In addition, the engine sits in the front of the fresh air in the full air flow.
In the helicopter, the engine is stuck in the back of the CFRP fuselage and sweats.

By the way, we also replaced the ESC free of charge with the first motor defect, ALTHOUGH it was 100% fine after our inspection.
With the second motor defect, the ESC was also completely intact again. He did not open any further because he could no longer guarantee safe operation due to the weak magnets. Exactly the same behavior as with the first engine.
And that's exactly what it is. A regulator without this protective function would probably have broken here. A cosmic would probably have switched off hard.
Here the controller has protected itself. The pilot noticed in flight that he had no power and landed.
I was able to tell him roughly what was going on by a short reading on the spot. After checking the logs, all solder joints and plugs, it could only be the motor. And that's how it was.
If the regulator had switched off or turned it down, a crash of the helicopter would have been likely.
I think it is very unlikely that the engine broke down due to this limitation.
It was the other way around, the regulator limited because the motor broke. Otherwise, the controller would have limited in the first flights.

My personal guess, but I can also be wrong with that.
The motor was undersized for the application (heli). Put a 5030 in there, and it will work. The way I followed it, that's exactly the plan. I think that's good and I'm looking forward to the result!
I had exactly the same problem in my 10S helicopter. There was an Xnova 4530 in it. after a few flights I had no more power.
The regulator no longer opened fully. Looked in, the winding was black.
This season I went on a 4530 and everything is good.

On the subject of partial load, in the appendix a log from my 16S helicopter, with the Opto 255.
You can see that you are always somewhere between 80 and 100% PWM.
100% only in absolute load peaks. In the last overflight, of course, a little more often.
The maximum temperature was 72°C, with an outside temperature of 27°C.
I would say that no other controller in the class can do that at the moment.

But that's it from me for now.
I think from a YGE point of view, everything has been said, and I hope you understand our point of view.
If you have any questions, I or Heino are of course always available by phone or email.


Greetings
Marian


Appendixes

• Screenshot 2024-11-13 100507.png 146 KB · Views: 41

[Clugh]

Marian-YGE

User

• 13 November 2024

• #819

Powercroco wrote:
So you only noticed/were reported that something was going wrong when it was actually already too late.

The model came down intact, the controller remained intact.
I'll leave the fact that the engine, which was already defective at that moment, may have broken down even more.
I don't want to judge that. But that's not the task of the controller either.
From my point of view, nothing was too late here.
The pilot could also have programmed a warning. But he didn't.

The aim of our controllers is to maintain operation for as long and as well as possible without shutting down or regulating it.
And he has done that here with flying colors.

With Synclost, reduce detection to 80%. With the helicopter, which is already at 80% anyway? Or to 50%, where some models are no longer flyable?
Or switch off bluntly? Not only unpleasant with the helicopter, also with an Acro model 1m above the ground when torqueing stupid.
And these are only a few scenarios.
Apart from that, there are motors that are always close to having synclost here and there. Example 28-pole dualsky. It happens several times in flight that the controller limits for a short time, especially if you overdo it with the acceleration again. So that it can go on unnoticed. Reducing every time to e.g. fixed 70% does not make sense here.
Even in my 16S helicopter it sometimes intervenes minimally when I pitch too quickly. I don't notice anything about it in flight. That's OK too.
It would be annoying if he then regulates to 70% and I can forget about the scoring flight.
A warning via telemetry would be useful, but not feasible with every telemetry system. It would also spread panic unnecessarily.
You could create an extra mode, especially for speed flyers, where you can adjust something like that. But that brings us back to the topic.
The effort for currently 1 or 2 pilots who use the ESC at all in the speed area?
You can see that it's not all that easy when you think outside the box.

Powercroco wrote:
From now on "run through loop" until the magnets are completely cooked or the winding is so dead that the helicopter can just keep itself in the air.

As I said, he was able to land safely and cleanly, without stress.
The way you describe it, he should have kept limiting, ultimately to a standstill.
A look at the log, which you have probably also seen, shows that the controller has cooled down again during this time and the PWM has not been limited any further. Which means that it didn't get worse for the engine either...
You can just read all that out of it.
In the helicopter it is just like this, if the governor no longer readjusts (because e.g. the synclost prevention is limited), then there is no longer a great torque. So the current doesn't rise much anymore.

But now...

Greetings
Marian

• 

Reactions:RdS, Thomas Moldtmann, Powercroco and 2 others

[Clugh]

Marian-YGE

User

• 13 November 2024

• #821

Pretty much everything is wrong with that.
The motor was already broken and then the regulator limited. And by limiting the motor does not break down even further. And even if it did, that would still be better than if the controller and the model were also destroyed.

But well, we're going round in circles. People should read and make up their own minds.

Powercroco wrote:
After Marian has thankfully worked out again clearly that from the point of view of the actuator manufacturer it doesn't matter at all (****) whether the engine gets a survival chace and the (economic) effort for the currently 1-2 speed area speeders with YGE 255 is unreasonable anyway,

Please don't twist facts! It was all about the development of a special mode for speed flyers. And there seems to be no interest for there, because those who use the controller are also at peace this way. With your engines. And they didn't break

• 

Reactions:RdS, audiosmith and fabric-speed

Powercroco

User

• 13 November 2024

• #822

yes, I forgot
to write "implementation of a special mode", so far my fault.
In other words:

After Marian has thankfully worked out clearly that from the point of view of the actuator manufacturer it doesn't matter at all (****) whether the engine gets a survival chace and the (economic) effort of implementing a special mode for the currently 1-2 speed area speeders with YGE 255 is inappropriate anyway,

the brand new motor was already broken ... Is it still possible?

Whether I warn or not is purely my business.
What the user wants to make of it is indeed up to each of them.
But this problem will no longer exist in the future anyway.

I think the thread can be closed.



Ralph

• 

Reactions:Rds

Marian-YGE

User

• 13 November 2024

• #823

Powercroco wrote:
The brand new engine was already broken ... Is it still possible?

Of course, not when he was new! It had already broken down, in this flight or in the flight before, at full power!
Until the regulator no longer allowed it.
Please just take a look at the logs.

Phew... Please close the thread.

[Clugh]

Hubert

[Clugh]

" there are still some magnets set that have obviously suffered in use......"

~Powercroco~ 1/3/2024

[Clugh]

Whan happened to standard NMB on the surfboard ???

Double row angular contact. U need the Swiss bruder!

[Clugh]

Searching deep for solutions he was.... What did the experts FEM show you about the two bearing deflection Ralph????????

Got ya again.....

The archives do not have dementia ...



Hubert

[Clugh]

6800 RU is a Koyo deep groove radial bearing from Japan.

Das Lied über die Deutschen ist traurig. Wie Ralph, der täglich über NMB-Lager redet, aber auf diesem Foto Koyo-Rillenkugellager aus Japan hat. Man sieht auch, dass er keine Ahnung hat, wie man ein Nadellager für 30.000 U/min einsetzt. Er ist ein Idiot in einer Maschinenwerkstatt. Er sagt, die NMBs seien okay, sucht dann aber nach einem doppelreihigen Ringkontaktlager, weil die langen Scorpion-Motoren mit nur einem Lager an jedem Ende mechanisch unzulänglich sind, während jeder Kontronics, den er sich hier ansieht, selbst in den Short Stacks, drei Keramik-Hybridlager pro Motor hat. Dann gibt es noch einen mit Motoren, die nie laufen. Er redet über Flugzeuge, aber wo ist seins? Er redet über maßstabsgetreue Boote, hat aber noch nie ein schnelles elektrisches Wasserfahrzeug im Maßstab 1:8 gebaut. Seine Boote fuhren 80 km/h mit bürstenbehafteten Gleichstrommotoren. Sie wollen umsonst Götterstatus und werden ihn von mir nie bekommen. Ralph Okon ist ein erbärmlicher Neider, weil Piloten ihn nicht als Ersatz für Bert Dekkers Wickelarbeit anbieten. Sie meinen, nur weil sie ihn wickeln, müsste man über 300 € für einen Motor bezahlen, der ab Werk 56 € kostet. Wenn man das jetzt tut, dann nur auf Basis von bereits besseren Motoren. Anakin ist witzig: Er macht Vorschläge, verschwindet, wenn man nach Beweisen fragt, und taucht dann wieder auf, um zu trollen. Die deutschen sozialen Medien schätzen all seine sinnlosen Versuche offensichtlich. Wo sind die Halbach- und die 20-Pol-Elektronik? Sie verschwindet, und mit ihr all das Gerede darüber.

Nichts wird jemals daraus. Man bekommt keine weiteren Antworten zur Halbach-Elektronik oder zum niedrigen Pol-Magnet-Verhältnis von 0,6 in einem 12N20P. Er läuft nicht. Man sieht weder eine Gegen-EMK-Messung noch irgendwelche Laufdaten davon, oder?

Deshalb ist der Kurs geschlossen. Im Gegenzug haben Sie nur Irrtümer und Unsinn erhalten. Garantiert werden in jedem Forum nur zwei zusätzliche Clowns hinzugefügt.

[Clugh]

Der Hass geht weiter

[Clugh]

Und Christain, du verkaufst nichts anderes, als unvollendete Träume, um deine Motortechnik zu bewerben. Nichts weiter als ein Verkaufstroll in den technischen Rubriken. Aber jeder sieht, dass du Probleme mit der Ehrlichkeit hast. Du bist ein lustiger Mann.

Was für eine lustige Fahrt durch unsere amerikanischen Foren.


Schauen Sie sich den blonden Affen an, der auf dem Rücken des Krokodils reitet.

Danke,
Hubert

[Clugh]

I haven't received all the specific data yet but this was Mike's repose about his maiden flights.

" Let me get home but bottom line, tons more power, Very smooth . On average 20 amps more draw but it comes down cool to the touch. I couldn't be happier."

~MP~



I will truly quantify all this after we talk more later today but the average power delivery in his 700 was 4.08 Kw the 800 was 4.7 Kw and he comes home cool. The machines weigh 315 grams each and i can put more copper in quite easily if he wants more. These P650 wound as is can easily pull >5kW for a substantial duration.

Thank you for your time and patience,
Hubert

[Clugh]

And to those additional amendments I offered his reply was:


"I'm driving now But I would not change a thing. I love these motors..."
~Mike Padron~

A real aircraft Pilot. 😜

[Clugh]

So...Proximity man and the Golden monkey need to worry about themselves...No class on shielding or my hybrids will be offered this month. We're focusing on the pilots and contra power plants.

You don't have to worry. Ralph!
I have a test vehicle dedicated to the big block R&D
and sinking your black and gold even further beneath me on the freak

REMOTELY!! 😎

Pop the bubble and the smell of your fallacious breath will sink the Titanic

I'll see you and your boys around soon enough suckas...what I do is apparently beyond your scope of understanding.. I am hardly your contemporary. You are not in my league. This is the pros.. U POP warner.

As the forums can see the Halbach and 12 slot 20 pole nonsense is over with u2 just like that. Just pull the curtain back and you'll see the golden monkey clear as day standing quietly behind it.

Report your halbach rotor R_mp A-boy



Danke,
Hubert

[Clugh]

The 700

[Clugh]

The 800

[Clugh]

Hate on Bruder. America will survive. Itz easy to type hype but to go along with F3A....I'm going to take Helifreaks back.1 pilot at a time. They all fly 3 Ceramic hybrids...

Hey Chris... These are powered with smaller than what Jan recommends on steroids at 315 grams for each P650 motor.

I call them Twin Hype....

.

[Clugh]

Hubert

[Clugh]

All I need now is one speed pilot and we can take the world! I guarantee you I can build you something that will spank that powercroco scorpion azz!!!


We do things differently here......

TTYL
Hubert