Alternative motor windings and drive schemes

[Clugh]

And so Christian get your 7 x 10 ready and get the castle equipment from America off the cradle you threw together with no real time data acquisition
and get your 20 pole. halback 14 pole and 41 10 pole up on it. I see you love to examine Castle 4 poles BLDC power systems and Neumotors

[Clugh]

You dont read here??? boy you a silly rabbit.

[Clugh]

I hope you all understand now its hardly a "monolog" .

Ill talk to you later and hopefully youll see something he actually proposed up on his stand and not US!!!

The tin man is still tying to figure out how Dorthy does it in Kassas.

Castle Creations
540 N. Rogers Road
Olathe, Kansas 66062 USA

There also will be no rmp reported for the halbach. U think you are slick.... but you cant sell an ounce of that bs to me.

Thanks for your time and patience,
Hubert

[Clugh]

Ha!

its really to bad that not even your cheerleader buys your theory. He is also incorrect the Halbach can bring alot if its designed correctly but since your has no rmp reported who knows what it does. See they have no clue but i do that's why you won't answer the question about the quadrature axis inductance in your 41. You are not slick..... Sebastians opinions mean nothing as this is all dictated by proven science not hobbyist opinions..

Why do you all keep referring to FOC and have never commissioned built it or tuned one specifically to any motor in your lives.

You dont know anything about the latest FET technology or parameters like band width ratio in a SVC FOC inverter. All u know is the general theory of FOC drives. You don't fool me at all but you keep them going.....

More turns has always made a better inductor.

the motors dont work in DC they only have a dc source.what happens at stall is immaterial because the efficiency is zero there not at idle. The magnetic circuilt is moving physical mass so its doing work. at idle.

The ac resistance is as much as 10 times the dc! You keep stressing the DC performance no reason at all. efficiency comes at the ratio of ac to dc losses. evidently you dont also realize that the zero order current in the delta and wide open slots generate additional space harmonics creating more eddy current and ac losses in the copper.

[Clugh]

But enuf about the Wunder motors that have never run. Once the motor shows it can run and generate data it will merit real attention. I'm done with I for now just like the 20 pole. It doesn't run with data.

TTYL
Hubert

[Clugh]

Influence of the Shielding Winding on the Bearing Voltage in a Permanent Magnet Synchronous Machine

Einfluss der Schirmwicklung auf die Lagerspannung in einer permanenterregten Synchronmaschine

Sebastian Berhausen , Tomasz Jarek and PetrOrság

A easy 3DP slot wedge revision of 2 axial bores to go along with the hybrid stator winding.

This is how you kill the noise with a pure as winding as possible.


TTYL
Hubert

[Clugh]

The power Croco doesn't know anything about it. Wunderworld never had it this good......this is 2023 winding technology. A halbach array which has been around longer than most of us are old. No way it's truly a new solution. Go see if the leaders ever had a thread about shielding the slot with a shorted winding. anywhere in crocoworld.. I am constantly showing them and the forums things that work and are easy to implement without changing geometry.

You also know from Ralph 's comments about steel balls that this is above the pay grade of 5 dollar NMB bearing specialist!!!!

If you are German and ask for this special modification to quiet your machine and extend the life of your NMB bearings he might stop dealing with you....


Just ask the hobbyist that requested zirc balls and races. You would think he committed blasphemy in the face of God just by asking that he do something that is being done here in America. Regularly.

less the "cubic zirconia ballz"


Danke
Hubert

[Clugh]

He doesn't do anything special. for the electric motors Realize that.
He reads here because i propose a plethora of winding options and tricks for a better machine. I have a degree and work in the field . He does not and never will.
If you dont think things like this have him locked you have not a clugh.......I own Ralph! Everything refers back to being his Teacher. you already know i can post him sitting in seat 1.

He's already refused to pick up a 7 X10 30,000 rpm sport prop and load it in a torque cradle. he refuses empirical measure at the bench where all conditions are the same. A controlled environment . U see for yourself he is not interested in any head to head comparisons with POCBOI

U can contact me for a winding reality!
at
Hitechrcb@yahoo.com

[Clugh]

Fallacy cannot save a poor winding program now. You wont touch that 7x10 because you know what the results will be. against your plain jane motor windings. You pioneers don't even have a running hybrid??. Its the latest and most discussed winding tech currently. You should be thankful I showed you how to wind it and that it works in a parallel configuration at that. Its a fact that my hybrid motor has 12 coils not 6. The forum has also seen it actually run and data. You on the other hand stuff them full with static photos of data less inanimate prototypes. You truly get on my nerves because you truly serve the winding forums not a bit of good will or plain honesty. You are not trying to help anybody and that's a fact. If I could exclude you from the information I probably would but then again that is truly not the American way. I've proven long ago that this is my room and you are merely guest here. You ought to be thankful though I know you are not and hate me thru and thru...


So what? You still camp here for the information everyday.

Figure out the shielding for yourself. I know you like it. I wont share the paper or my insight about it, and you may not have access to the study. I Dunno and it isn't my problem. I have all the manuals.

Dr Gerling and Munich University are quite familiar with the pioneering winding work you've JUST been shown here in this thread. They also implement it in the flux barriers now.

Its already been stated that power Croco is not going to implement any of these things for you. The heli beating around in a circle from the scorpions motor vibration b4 it leaves the ground or even runs through the transmission is perfectly fine with him. Its fact that were different. If I can deliver you a motor as quiet as the two halbach machines in the video I showed you. I'm going to damn sure try. I know the value in that is tremendous in efficiency of your entire craft , Not just your motor.

Ralph does not think with the mind of an Electrical Engineer because he is not one. If he cannot understand its value. I wont waste my time being mad at his ignorance any more. Or his fear to load the motor with little 7 x 10 prop.

He can run your 5,000 dollar planes directly into the ground with his NMB's and rotor demagnetization pot less bi filar winding only as long as you let him. It won't be my problem.

But I can repair upgrade it for a fee.

TTYL
Hubert

[Clugh]

I am a strange American because It makes no sense TO ME for a person to tell you a motor is the right one for the job. sell it to you and then be okay it fails often then wont do anything to improve it...

Man... that certainly is normal for what American.???

[Clugh]

Edit changed my mind.
The Cost of Schweinfurt

Danke,
Hubert

[Clugh]

Sven Gustaf Wingqvist (10. Dezember 1876 – 17. April 1953) war ein schwedischer Ingenieur, Erfinder und Industrieller und einer der Gründer der Svenska Kullagerfabriken (SKF), einem der weltweit führenden Hersteller von Kugel- und Rollenlagern. Sven Wingqvist erfand 1907 das mehrreihige selbstausrichtende Kugellager.

Chronik
1876: Geboren am 10. Dezember in der Gemeinde Kumla südlich von Örebro, Schweden. Seine Eltern waren Bahnhofsinspektoren in Hallsberg, S. D. Wingqvist und Anna Lundberg.
1894: Abitur an der Rudbecksskolan in Örebro (Örebroer Technische Grundschule).
1899: Wingqvist wurde als Betriebsingenieur bei Gamlestadens Textilindustrie in Göteborg eingestellt. Dort arbeitete er viele Jahre lang an der Lösung der Probleme mit den häufigen Ausfällen der Kugellager der Hauptantriebswellen. Ursache hierfür waren die Bodenverhältnisse, da die Fabrik auf Lehm gebaut war. Die Wellenlager bewegten sich gelegentlich um Bruchteile von Millimetern, kaum messbar, aber ausreichend, um enorme Zusatzkräfte in den damals verfügbaren „steifen“ Lagern zu erzeugen. Wingqvist widmete sich zunehmend der Entwicklung von Lagern im Allgemeinen und sammelte alle möglichen technischen Errungenschaften und neuen Ideen, die in ganz Europa zur Kugellagertechnologie präsentiert wurden. Insbesondere studierte er sorgfältig den 1902 von Professor Richard Stribeck[1] an der Technischen Hochschule Dresden vorgelegten Bericht, in dem er Kugellager und Gleitlager wissenschaftlich verglichen hatte. Wingqvist erkannte bald, dass Kugellager Zukunft hatten und Raum für Innovationen boten. Auf sein Betreiben hin wurde auf dem Gelände der Gamlestadens-Fabrik eine kleine Werkstatt eingerichtet, in der Tests mit verschiedenen Konstruktionen und Stahlmaterialien durchgeführt werden konnten. 1906 erhielt er ein Patent für ein einreihiges selbstausrichtendes Kugellager (schwedisches Patent Nr. 24160). Dieser Lagertyp hatte jedoch den Nachteil, dass er axialen Belastungen nicht standhielt. Er arbeitete weiter an der Entwicklung eines selbstausrichtenden Lagers, das auch axialen Belastungen standhalten konnte.
1907: Auf Initiative von Sven Wingqvist und den Eigentümern der Gamlestadens Textilindustrie wurde SKF am 16. Februar gegründet, zunächst als Tochtergesellschaft der Gamlestadens Textilindustrie. Er wurde zum Geschäftsführer und technischen Leiter ernannt. Axel Carlander, Sohn eines der Eigentümer der Gamlestadens Textilindustrie, wurde zum CEO von SKF ernannt. (Axel Carlander war bis 1937 CEO von SKF.) Am 21. Mai reichte SKF beim schwedischen Patent- und Registrieramt (PRV) die Patentanmeldung für ein mehrreihiges selbstausrichtendes Radialkugellager ein. Das Patent wurde am 6. Juni mit der Patentnummer erteilt. Nr. 25406. Erfinder: S.G. Wingqvist.[2] In der Patentanmeldung werden ein zweireihiges sowie ein dreireihiges Kugellager beschrieben. Im gleichen Zeitraum reichte SKF Patentanmeldungen in zehn verschiedenen Ländern ein, darunter Frankreich, Deutschland, England und die USA, und innerhalb kurzer Zeit wurden in all diesen Ländern Patente erteilt. Damit war der Weg für eine weltweite Expansion frei. Nach dem Bau des neuen Werks in Göteborg entstanden in vielen Ländern weltweit SKF-Vertriebsgesellschaften und neue Produktionsstätten. Die erste SKF-Produktionsstätte außerhalb Schwedens wurde 1911 in Luton, England, gegründet.
1919: Wingqvist heiratet Hildur Hult (1892–1963).[3]
1919–1932: Wingqvist arbeitet als unabhängiger beratender Ingenieur und nebenberuflich als CEO für SKF.
1938–1953: CEO von SKF. 1933–1938: Geschäftsführer von AB Bofors.
1938–1946: CEO von AB Bofors.
1941–1953: CEO von Svenska Flygmotor AB.
Einige schwedische Patente von Sven Wingqvist (Schweden-Registrierungsnummer).

Diese Liste ist unvollständig. Sie können helfen, indem Sie fehlende Einträge ergänzen. (April 2024)
25406 Mehrreihiges selbstausrichtendes Radialkugellager, 1907
26266 Selbstausrichtendes Kugellager für axiale Belastungen, 1908
27397 Werkzeug für Präzisionsmessungen, 1908
31707 Zweireihiges Pendelrollenlager, 1910
33901 Kugelhaltervorrichtung, Wingqvist und H. Olsson, 1910
57197 Rollenlager mit Druckflansch, Wingqvist und N.A. Palmgren, 1919
78223 Vorrichtung für zweireihige Rollenlager, 1931

[Clugh]

Wenn Sie meinen, dass Thailand für 5 Dollar ein besseres Lager bauen könnte, ist das in Ordnung, Dr. Okon.

BI BI
Hubert

[Clugh]

Interesting the efficiency of either pioneering motor shown here...Whoa!!!

"As announced, here is the efficiency comparison test with the 4140/13, many thanks to Ralph for the test specimens.
Because the 4140 was built according to the latest findings and with a lot of effort for partial load optimization through sheet metal inference and segmented magnets, I have always been interested in what this brings in practice, but how to measure without a test bench?

For this I have come up with the following simple method, you take a comparison motor of similar weight and specific speed and measure the required input power at partial load and full load on a prop with identical speed, so you get 4 different input power for always the same output power.

Preview and measurement environment:
An old HK4540 was chosen as a comparison engine, at first glance this seems unfair but the decisive criterion is the weight, the user is usually not interested in what dimensions are working there.
The 4540 weighs 3.9% more but a 4535 would be 7% too light, so you get the closest and why should lightweight construction be punished, especially since the 4540 has the 10mm solid steel shaft required in this size class.

In addition, it is not a hobbyist motor, but anyone can even buy it with a 4+4x1.7YY winding from WOH, but only a 4+4x1.6YY was deliberately chosen so that the 4540 suffers from a copper deficiency similar to the 4140 and it is a fair comparison.
Both motors do not achieve the necessary 15-20% copper content, which has proven to be a prerequisite for high efficiency.

The controller is a YGE Opto135 without cabinet, which allows 12s with 190A and above all outputs the PWM, which is recorded with an S32, 18° fixed timing has been set and the basic setting of 32kHz PWM frequency has been left as it is.
Since the current shunt in the YGE is located between electrolytic capacitors and power amplifier, the current values are not always accurate, so a Unilog2 was also used, which of course also measures the regulator losses.

For the partial load, 86% PWM was chosen, a value that is often found in the helicopter after half of the flight in the upper speed.
For this purpose, the throttle curve was changed so that only so much gas is output at 12s that a maximum of 86% PWM is reached, while the 100% PWM measurement took place at 10s.

An APC 14x8.5E was chosen as the prop because the pitch-diameter ratio is less than 65% and therefore there is no risk of stalls, which would affect the power consumption unevenly.
Unfortunately, there are still ripples due to room air vortices, so you should not take the measured values in the valley or mountain, but measurement errors of 0.5% are still possible.

Evaluation :
The measured values can be found on the note, as you can see the specific speed is similar.
In the 100% PWM measurement, it is noticeable that the 4140 only has an n/n0 ratio of 74.2% at this operating point and thus a poor speed stiffness, something that is not so popular with helicopter pilots.
It should have gotten around by now that according to Schenk's motor rule, the efficiency at one operating point cannot be better than the n/n0 ratio at this one.

So the cheapest value was assumed to be Eta with 74%, resulting in a wave power of 4827W, which then results in an Eta of 78.7% for the 4540.
For the partial load at 86% PWM, the 4140 requires an additional power of 4% and the 4540 of 4.9%, so this results in a partial load Eta of 71% for the 4140 and 75% for the 4540.
So you can see that the 4140 can no longer catch up with the worse full load Eta due to the lower partial load more power, which is actually logical because a good full load Eta is the foundation for a good partial load Eta.

But even in absolute terms, the effort for partial load optimization seems to me to be disproportionate to the benefit of only 0.9% less partial load additional power.
Also, according to the data sheet, an Eta of 91% at 10kW and 35000U i.e. 67V and 150A is completely plucked out of thin air, how you call something like that is up to you.

It should also be mentioned that the copper filling degree of the 4540 can be increased by up to 50%, which results in an increase in speed stiffness and efficiency of 4-5%, otherwise I would not bother to accommodate as much copper as possible in my motors, with high load applications there are over 90% copper losses.
Unfortunately, the 4140 does not have this tuning potential due to its design, and it in particular would desperately need it.

Conclusion:
It is disappointing that there is no tangible benefit from this effort, especially since this motor was described by THE expert as the ultimate, perhaps one should return to measuring instead of just simulating and extrapolating.
Unfortunately, I have to say, if this is what further development looks like, then I'd rather stick to the status quo, too bad for Lehner."
VG Thomas Schmidt

[Clugh]

But no room in wunderworld for a better bearing , shielding, slot wedges, hybrid windings, dual 3 phase etc. he says he has no use for any of it in a speed flight motor. I disagree in every way. He may not have a use for it but pilots in all forms or rc certainly do. Don't let greedy vendors stop you from growing in know how in your own rc hobby. Don't allow them to limit YOUR performance Refusing you a better bearing and slot shielding if you want it is absolutely insane. This bearing and slot shielding is absolutely ingenious from the Phds. I can show you several simple ways to implement it into the hobby wound machines. I care less what brand you knit it into. The still photos coming out of the German social media on crocoworld are apparently nothing but data less still props set up for the camera and supposed to leave you all in "wunderment" . Does any of it even run? Can we hear and see it run please???The 20 pole and this 14 pole Halbach machine that the creator will not report its radial magnet to pole ratio or its direct or quadrature inductances??? It's amazing how some people try to take advantage of your good sense simply because YOU may not be an engineer and know no better as a pure sport or leisure hobbyist that doesn't dig that deep. Free money is all these 2 are looking for. You have not received an iota or relevant information to evaluate the torque performance of the said 14 pol Halbach Wunder motor.

[Clugh]

I wont waste my time loading a 10 pole P600 like I wind for F3A because I know it will eat this joker for lunch. I'm not going to log anything with the inverter. As I've stated we are going to measure the mechanical out via RPM and a reactionary torque sensor that measure the required torque to turn the prop.. At the scale of a 7 X10 you could probably do this with a 25 kg servo. and just measure his holding amperage .. At that rpm and prop its probably only about a ft pound there if that. 1.5 would be approx.90 cc equivalent at that rpm. The pylon motor that pulls more prop 8.8 x 9.25 is only about half that.

The small engine is hardly a 4250 stator that 4250 is the external dimension with the shaft and it only specs at 1100 watts on 15 s lipo. The P600 can hit >5 kw.for a sustained period of more than 2 seconds. The inverter logged efficiency is on stride with what has been claimed there with a 50 dollar motor. So that's nearly double. And she can run 30,000 rpm all day.

The little joker is a power squirt .Its worth 150 dollars after the winding.. Would you waste 100 dollar wind on it or a better core and mechanical construction?

[Clugh]

Its funny how he knows what the sync loss is and can never reach there with the reported inverter he used... what in the hell does he think the current limit is of a 150 ampere regulator anyway???

[Clugh]

Then for someone else to suggest quantifying a 5040 motor with the little 30000 rpm prop that draws 3.5kW seems even more silly when that's not at all the applicative load point a 5040 sees in competition. Its the same ole merry go round there. All the time.

They all need to relax get a bottle of 1738 and a cigar stfu stop hating and sit down somewhere...

[Clugh]

Hey big mouth... what happened to the NMB???? Thats not a contactless so this bearing has significant drag as compared to the orange contactless shield style slated for electric motors. What's the matter? The pilot want a better bearing than NMB for elevated radial loads in his gearbox?




Danke,
Hubert

[Clugh]

But no room in wunderworld for a better bearing , shielding, slot wedges, hybrid windings, dual 3 phase etc. he says he has no use for any of it in a speed flight motor. I disagree in every way. He may not have a use for it but pilots in all forms or rc certainly do. Don't let greedy vendors stop you from growing in know how in your own rc hobby. Don't allow them to limit YOUR performance Refusing you a better bearing and slot shielding if you want it is absolutely insane. This bearing and slot shielding is absolutely ingenious from the Phds. I can show you several simple ways to implement it into the hobby wound machines. I care less what brand you knit it into. The still photos coming out of the German social media on crocoworld are apparently nothing but data less still props set up for the camera and supposed to leave you all in "wunderment" . Does any of it even run? Can we hear and see it run please???The 20 pole and this 14 pole Halbach machine that the creator will not report its radial magnet to pole ratio or its direct or quadrature inductances??? It's amazing how some people try to take advantage of your good sense simply because YOU may not be an engineer and know no better as a pure sport or leisure hobbyist that doesn't dig that deep. Free money is all these 2 are looking for. You have not received an iota or relevant information to evaluate the torque performance of the said 14 pol Halbach Wunder motor.

That part! So what is this NON STANDARD NMB bearing I see installed this American morning?