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Official Freewing 90mm F-4 Phantom II Thread

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  • Even though I was careful to set up the stabs parallel and carefull about the flaps being equal, mine also needed a bit of aileron trim...

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    • Originally posted by Evan D View Post
      Even though I was careful to set up the stabs parallel and carefull about the flaps being equal, mine also needed a bit of aileron trim...
      Mine needed slight trim as well, but sfcbhunt is talking about using 1/4 inch (6.5mm) and that wasn't enough. I used 1mm or less on both F-4's and separate slight adjustments (couple clicks different on each) with the two flap deployments. 1/4 inch plus whatever he adds with one of the flaps to level it just sounds way too much, that's why I'm thinking something else must be causing the roll. Are the tanks affecting it that much?
      Hugh "Wildman" Wiedman
      Hangar: FL/FW: Mig 29 "Cobra", A-10 Arctic, F18 Canadian & Tiger Meet, F16 Wild Weasel, F4 Phantom & Blue Angel, 1600 Corsair & Spitfire, Olive B-24, Stinger 90, Red Avanti. Extreme Flight-FW-190 Red Tulip, Slick 60, 60" Extra 300 V2, 62" MXS Heavy Metal, MXS Green, & Demonstrator. FMS-1700mm P-51, Red Bull Corsair. E-Flite-70mm twin SU-30, Beast Bi-Plane 60", P2 Bi-Plane, P-51.

      Comment


      • My F-4 flies well, now. It took raising the aileron and flap on the right side, 5/16" to counter the nasty left roll. This turned out to be caused by the right outboard wing panel having a greater incidence than the left. I had a similar condition with my Free Wing F-86. It had a nasty right roll. It required over 1/8" of cardboard shims between the left wing LE and the bottom of the fuse to correct.

        I like it It flies well. Will I buy another Free Wing jet? No way in hell. Their quality control is pee poor.

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        • More Freewing models available for me!

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          • Originally posted by sfcbhunt View Post
            My F-4 flies well, now. It took raising the aileron and flap on the right side, 5/16" to counter the nasty left roll. This turned out to be caused by the right outboard wing panel having a greater incidence than the left. I had a similar condition with my Free Wing F-86. It had a nasty right roll. It required over 1/8" of cardboard shims between the left wing LE and the bottom of the fuse to correct.

            I like it It flies well. Will I buy another Free Wing jet? No way in hell. Their quality control is pee poor.
            It's too bad sfcbhunt that you got a lemon. I now have a dozen Freewing/FlightLine jets & props and so far I have been very lucky I guess. I have 2 F-4's, one I redid in the Blue Angel Scheme and both fly exceptionally well with only minor trim. To bad you may have been too late in working it out with Motion, I have had excellent customer care for anything that was even the slightest problem. I actually think their quality is better than E-Flight or FMS, but I guess that's just me. Got 4 flights on one of my F-4's today (and 16 flights on 3 other FW jets including the F-16) in 18-24 mph winds and she blew through it with no trouble. Landing with the F-4 into a 20 mph headwind is a blast with full flaps, slows down great and gets into a high alpha with barely any ground speed. But I'd still rather have light winds. Just started using the RT 6250 mah 35C battery and I'm getting over 4 minutes or fairly aggressive flying on the stock outrunner.

            Click image for larger version

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            Hugh "Wildman" Wiedman
            Hangar: FL/FW: Mig 29 "Cobra", A-10 Arctic, F18 Canadian & Tiger Meet, F16 Wild Weasel, F4 Phantom & Blue Angel, 1600 Corsair & Spitfire, Olive B-24, Stinger 90, Red Avanti. Extreme Flight-FW-190 Red Tulip, Slick 60, 60" Extra 300 V2, 62" MXS Heavy Metal, MXS Green, & Demonstrator. FMS-1700mm P-51, Red Bull Corsair. E-Flite-70mm twin SU-30, Beast Bi-Plane 60", P2 Bi-Plane, P-51.

            Comment


            • I flew my maiden on my FW F-4 6s camo version today. I put it together last night and I thought to myself, this has an 8s version as well, so could probably benefit from more power. The FMS setup is 90mm 6s 3546 1900kv, per the website 3,500 grams of thrust at 119amps, and is lighter and more powerful than the 9 bladed FW stock setup. It was epic.

              She flew true on all axis except pitch. I flew her twice on my Hobbystar 8000mah 6s 100c packs. Both times my CG was 188mm back from the leading edge. I couldn't get it any further aft do to the lipo packs I was using. No big deal I trimmed her level and enjoyed the flight smooth as butter.

              2 things, first I configured for landing a minute early, as I normally do on maidens, however the 8mm up elevator trim with the flaps that the manual called for wasn't enough to keep her nose up. Second flight, I added another 4mm to the mix, still not enough. Since she was trimmed in level flight prior to configuring on both flights, so the 188mm forward CG isn't the issue. After the second flight I added another 4mm, so double what the manual calls for, we'll see how the next flight is at 16mm of up elevator.

              2nd thing is flight time, I'm only getting 3:30 minutes before setting up for approach, landing at 30ish percent battery left for the F-4, yet my 90mm FW F-16 with this same power system same day was getting 4 minutes. The F-16 is heavier and I was running 6000mah 50c packs in her yet getting 30 seconds more flight time. The only thing I can figure is a little more drag from the airframe and elevator due to nose heavy condition. Or the FMS fan is working really hard to suck that air through the F-4's fuselage and spit it out the bifurcated exhaust.

              I thought about that due to someone posting on here in one of the forums, can't remember which one, but it was recent, that cutting cheater holes in their airframe gave over a pound more additional thrust. Closer to a pound and a half if I recall correctly.
              So... I'm adding a cheater hole and louvers to the F-4's fan access hatch. My F-16 has 3 cheater holes.

              These same 8000mah lipo packs give me 6 minutes on my Venom 90mm, 7.5 minutes on my T-33 80mm, 6 minutes, average, on my A-10 80mm, 6.5 minutes on my Flexjet 90mm. All have cheater holes or much better airflow due to ductwork in the case of the Flexjet. So we'll see how it goes. Very happy with the flight characteristics of the F-4 though.

              Below is a pic of my battery placement.
              Click image for larger version

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              • One more thing, I did the mod on the elevator beefing up the control rod, but decided not to swap the servo for a stronger one. MRC's website has it listed as providing 62 oz of torque, that's got to be more than enough, any thoughts? Specific oppositions?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Phantom View Post
                  I flew my maiden on my FW F-4 6s camo version today. I put it together last night and I thought to myself, this has an 8s version as well, so could probably benefit from more power. The FMS setup is 90mm 6s 3546 1900kv, per the website 3,500 grams of thrust at 119amps, and is lighter and more powerful than the 9 bladed FW stock setup. It was epic.

                  She flew true on all axis except pitch. I flew her twice on my Hobbystar 8000mah 6s 100c packs. Both times my CG was 188mm back from the leading edge. I couldn't get it any further aft do to the lipo packs I was using. No big deal I trimmed her level and enjoyed the flight smooth as butter.

                  2 things, first I configured for landing a minute early, as I normally do on maidens, however the 8mm up elevator trim with the flaps that the manual called for wasn't enough to keep her nose up. Second flight, I added another 4mm to the mix, still not enough. Since she was trimmed in level flight prior to configuring on both flights, so the 188mm forward CG isn't the issue. After the second flight I added another 4mm, so double what the manual calls for, we'll see how the next flight is at 16mm of up elevator.

                  2nd thing is flight time, I'm only getting 3:30 minutes before setting up for approach, landing at 30ish percent battery left for the F-4, yet my 90mm FW F-16 with this same power system same day was getting 4 minutes. The F-16 is heavier and I was running 6000mah 50c packs in her yet getting 30 seconds more flight time. The only thing I can figure is a little more drag from the airframe and elevator due to nose heavy condition. Or the FMS fan is working really hard to suck that air through the F-4's fuselage and spit it out the bifurcated exhaust.

                  I thought about that due to someone posting on here in one of the forums, can't remember which one, but it was recent, that cutting cheater holes in their airframe gave over a pound more additional thrust. Closer to a pound and a half if I recall correctly.
                  So... I'm adding a cheater hole and louvers to the F-4's fan access hatch. My F-16 has 3 cheater holes.

                  These same 8000mah lipo packs give me 6 minutes on my Venom 90mm, 7.5 minutes on my T-33 80mm, 6 minutes, average, on my A-10 80mm, 6.5 minutes on my Flexjet 90mm. All have cheater holes or much better airflow due to ductwork in the case of the Flexjet. So we'll see how it goes. Very happy with the flight characteristics of the F-4 though.

                  Below is a pic of my battery placement.
                  Click image for larger version

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                  Phantom surprised you're only getting 3:30 on the 8000. I'm using the Roaring Top 6250 mah 35C on the stock 9-blade and get well over 4 minutes of aggressive flying while leaving over 30% battery after taxiing to the pits. That battery weighs in at 790 g.

                  I like to fly both my F-4's at around 193 mm CG, so I'm slightly back of where you are. It get's into high alpha on landing very nicely there, as I found that at anything below 190 mm it's more of a 3 pointer landing.

                  On your trim, I'm at -15 for take-off flaps and -18 on landing flaps with deflections of 20 mm and 35 mm. Those % numbers are the amount of elevator servo travel from the servo travel menu, and not the number of clicks on the trim or compensation in the flap system, so it is a true representation of the % amount of travel. The "book" calls for 25 mm and 45 mm, but I felt that was a little too much. Get's off the grass with a nice scale take-off at 20 mm and I like the landing better at 35 mm instead of 45 mm. Still get's into a high alpha there and just didn't fell right at 45 mm for me, but that's probably just personal preference.

                  The other recommendation I have is to use flight modes tied to your flap switch (go to second menu screen and to Flight Mode Menu and set it there with spoken flight mode in another menu), assuming you have a Spektrum transmitter and go to the second menu screen under "Trim Utilities" and set the trim values next to elevator to FM. This will now allow you to set individual trim while flying at each position of the flap switch. You still "trim" in the same way during flight, using the trim switches on the face of the transmitter, but it keeps those trims you put in at each flap setting. You will no longer have to land, go to the flap menu screen, make an educated guess of how much compensation to put, then go try it out. You are able to trim at each flap setting in the air on the maiden. If anything changes (like a different battery or testing out moving it back or forth), you can easily trim at each flap setting during the flight and you're done. This set-up is a MUST for anyone using flaps. You can still put some estimated compensation in the flap menu settings, but that can be just a starting point. You then refine it to the EXACT trim you need in flight in seconds, BINGO. I also set the aileron to FM in the trim utilities because sometimes, both flaps do not deflect with the exact amount, causing a slight roll between settings. This lets you trim there for each flap setting. So on the maiden, you essentially then end up having to trim 6 things, the elevator & aileron in each of the 3 flap positions-kind of a busy maiden, but after the first or second flight you're locked in on all axis in each flap position. When I deploy flaps, I have absolutely no change in attitude or roll and just watching the plane/jet when you change flap settings you almost don't know you've actually changed the flaps. Try it out, you'll never go back to being without it.
                  Hugh "Wildman" Wiedman
                  Hangar: FL/FW: Mig 29 "Cobra", A-10 Arctic, F18 Canadian & Tiger Meet, F16 Wild Weasel, F4 Phantom & Blue Angel, 1600 Corsair & Spitfire, Olive B-24, Stinger 90, Red Avanti. Extreme Flight-FW-190 Red Tulip, Slick 60, 60" Extra 300 V2, 62" MXS Heavy Metal, MXS Green, & Demonstrator. FMS-1700mm P-51, Red Bull Corsair. E-Flite-70mm twin SU-30, Beast Bi-Plane 60", P2 Bi-Plane, P-51.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by sfcbhunt View Post
                    Anyway, this aircraft was never seen without the drop tanks, so I kind of want it that way..
                    SH, Well there was this one time.... Remember what the IP said, "don't ever say 'never'." Best, LB


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                    I solemnly swear to "over-celebrate" the smallest of victories.
                    ~Lucky B*st*rd~

                    You'll never be good at something unless you're willing to suck at it first.
                    ~Anonymous~

                    AMA#116446

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                    • The F-4s had "cheater holes" right from the start. They were referred to as aux air doors, and they opened whenever the engines needed more air than the intakes could provide.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hugh Wiedman View Post

                        Phantom surprised you're only getting 3:30 on the 8000. I'm using the Roaring Top 6250 mah 35C on the stock 9-blade and get well over 4 minutes of aggressive flying while leaving over 30% battery after taxiing to the pits. That battery weighs in at 790 g.

                        I like to fly both my F-4's at around 193 mm CG, so I'm slightly back of where you are. It get's into high alpha on landing very nicely there, as I found that at anything below 190 mm it's more of a 3 pointer landing.

                        On your trim, I'm at -15 for take-off flaps and -18 on landing flaps with deflections of 20 mm and 35 mm. Those % numbers are the amount of elevator servo travel from the servo travel menu, and not the number of clicks on the trim or compensation in the flap system, so it is a true representation of the % amount of travel. The "book" calls for 25 mm and 45 mm, but I felt that was a little too much. Get's off the grass with a nice scale take-off at 20 mm and I like the landing better at 35 mm instead of 45 mm. Still get's into a high alpha there and just didn't fell right at 45 mm for me, but that's probably just personal preference.

                        The other recommendation I have is to use flight modes tied to your flap switch (go to second menu screen and to Flight Mode Menu and set it there with spoken flight mode in another menu), assuming you have a Spektrum transmitter and go to the second menu screen under "Trim Utilities" and set the trim values next to elevator to FM. This will now allow you to set individual trim while flying at each position of the flap switch. You still "trim" in the same way during flight, using the trim switches on the face of the transmitter, but it keeps those trims you put in at each flap setting. You will no longer have to land, go to the flap menu screen, make an educated guess of how much compensation to put, then go try it out. You are able to trim at each flap setting in the air on the maiden. If anything changes (like a different battery or testing out moving it back or forth), you can easily trim at each flap setting during the flight and you're done. This set-up is a MUST for anyone using flaps. You can still put some estimated compensation in the flap menu settings, but that can be just a starting point. You then refine it to the EXACT trim you need in flight in seconds, BINGO. I also set the aileron to FM in the trim utilities because sometimes, both flaps do not deflect with the exact amount, causing a slight roll between settings. This lets you trim there for each flap setting. So on the maiden, you essentially then end up having to trim 6 things, the elevator & aileron in each of the 3 flap positions-kind of a busy maiden, but after the first or second flight you're locked in on all axis in each flap position. When I deploy flaps, I have absolutely no change in attitude or roll and just watching the plane/jet when you change flap settings you almost don't know you've actually changed the flaps. Try it out, you'll never go back to being without it.
                        Hugh, My go to radio for my jets is an old JR 10X with a Frsky modul, unfortunately it limits me to 10 models at a time, but I just love the touch screen and the programming to me is fast and intuitive. I purchased a Frsky Taranis x9d plus which I have my Flexjet and a few other birds on but although everyone raves about it's programming options with open TX, I find it like trying to learn a new language.

                        My flaps are on a slider switch, which allows me to gradually see the models tendencies in flight rather than flipping a 3 position switch and having something crazy happening that I have to recover from.

                        I don't have to worry about flaps matching left or right because I use the full mechanical range on all my planes, so they are physically matched from full up to full down.

                        I can't bring myself to buy another radio as I already have 9, the Taranis was my last attempt at modernizing this aspect of my hobby, and I consider it unsuccessful.

                        Thanks for the response though.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by sfcbhunt View Post
                          The F-4s had "cheater holes" right from the start. They were referred to as aux air doors, and they opened whenever the engines needed more air than the intakes could provide.
                          Sfcbhunt,
                          Thanks for that cool bit of history, I love learning tidbits like that. However I was specifically speaking of the RC model, edf dynamics.

                          Comment


                          • (Phantom ) "I purchased a Frsky Taranis x9d plus which I have my Flexjet and a few other birds on but although everyone raves about it's programming options with open TX, I find it like trying to learn a new language."

                            I was the same until I forced myself to go through the tutorials to the stage that I could understand what I was doing and why I was doing it. My brain was mince for a few weeks but it does "click" eventually, even with a late septuagenarian like me!!
                            I didn't do it all at once but progressed step by step and eventually ended up able to do what I wanted. My greatest satisfaction is not how awesome it is in what is can do, it is simply how reliable it is. Setting up the F4 on the Taranis can be as easy or as difficult as you want to make it, only three channels to play with if you really want to.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by locharrow View Post
                              (Phantom ) "I purchased a Frsky Taranis x9d plus which I have my Flexjet and a few other birds on but although everyone raves about it's programming options with open TX, I find it like trying to learn a new language."

                              I was the same until I forced myself to go through the tutorials to the stage that I could understand what I was doing and why I was doing it. My brain was mince for a few weeks but it does "click" eventually, even with a late septuagenarian like me!!
                              I didn't do it all at once but progressed step by step and eventually ended up able to do what I wanted. My greatest satisfaction is not how awesome it is in what is can do, it is simply how reliable it is. Setting up the F4 on the Taranis can be as easy or as difficult as you want to make it, only three channels to play with if you really want to.
                              Iocharrow,
                              Any recommendations on specific tutorials? I feel like I hit just about all of them on the ol YouTube...

                              Comment




                              • If your already flying with it you must be through the basics. This You Tube one is OK for learning the mixes....Taranis/OpenTX Mixing Tutorial.... but it depends where you want to go. Do you try out mixing, weights modes etc. on Open TX Companion? I looked at a brick wall after the simple stuff because I was trying to run.....baby steps are the answer !! Bit like playing the piano...some of us just want to play a nice tune others want to play like Winifred Atwell....giving away my age a bit !!

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by locharrow View Post


                                  If your already flying with it you must be through the basics. This You Tube one is OK for learning the mixes....Taranis/OpenTX Mixing Tutorial.... but it depends where you want to go. Do you try out mixing, weights modes etc. on Open TX Companion? I looked at a brick wall after the simple stuff because I was trying to run.....baby steps are the answer !! Bit like playing the piano...some of us just want to play a nice tune others want to play like Winifred Atwell....giving away my age a bit !!
                                  Thanks, I'll have to give another go here soon, running out of room on my other two radios. I'm averaging two model builds a week thanks to Covid-19. This weeks maiden will be there FW F-104 70mm, and the HK Avios Mig-17 90mm.

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                                  • Click image for larger version

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ID:	256979 Lucky man !! F104 is a big favourite ...saw a Belgian display team called the Slivers fly them -----to this day after watching countless displays teams it is the one I would like to see again. Still working out why it has negative camber ..

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                                    • I just finished putting a Freewing F4 8S version together and everything works. I fly large scale aerobatic planes and turbines. This is my first electric. I am using 2 4S batteries connected to the motion 2 into 1 connector. I have been chatting with Motion on this question but thought I would also post it here. I am not getting the 8 beeps denoting my 8s setup when I plug my battery in. I have plugged it in with the UBEC switch on and off and still not getting the beeps. I get a long tone then 3 beeps and another long tone.. I have initialized the ESC following the steps and the video on the motion site and again have done this with the UBEC switch on and off and I am putting throttle stick up and down and instructed always with throttle trim low. the chat said not to worry about the beeps if everything is working. Has anyone experienced this. Thanks. Tony

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                                      • I fly a 1600 LX Corsair with 2 50c 3s 5000's in series using a cheap Mystery 100 Opto esc and twin ubec and never hear 6 beeps ..... only get a musical tones then it's good to go. Never been a problem.

                                        Comment


                                        • Don't worry about the beeps on the Freewing 8S set ups, the ESC doesn't do the beeps right or more correctly like other ESCs.


                                          Originally posted by Tonybons View Post
                                          I just finished putting a Freewing F4 8S version together and everything works. I fly large scale aerobatic planes and turbines. This is my first electric. I am using 2 4S batteries connected to the motion 2 into 1 connector. I have been chatting with Motion on this question but thought I would also post it here. I am not getting the 8 beeps denoting my 8s setup when I plug my battery in. I have plugged it in with the UBEC switch on and off and still not getting the beeps. I get a long tone then 3 beeps and another long tone.. I have initialized the ESC following the steps and the video on the motion site and again have done this with the UBEC switch on and off and I am putting throttle stick up and down and instructed always with throttle trim low. the chat said not to worry about the beeps if everything is working. Has anyone experienced this. Thanks. Tony

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